Re: Religous Tolerance

by Seraphim Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:41 am

yoursoulknows wrote:There is much misrepresentation and misinformation fed through the media, based on agendas of the 'powers that be' - the select 'few' dictate how we live, what we think, what we believe, what we know, and what we think is important... we've seen that evidence in Dinar world, the financial world, the military world, the food chain, the drug industry... and for some reason it seems 'Islam' is the 'new enemy' of the western world, just as communism was before. Many are programed to think of Muslims/Islam based on terrorism or Arab culture... yet Arabs make up only 19% of all 1.4 Billion Muslims on the planet. And how many are terrorists out of that number? Very few... Speaking of terror - there are people who terrorize others in every religion and culture... even parents who terrorize their children, men who terrorize their wives.

There is no way anyone is going to convince anyone else about what is right for them... "There is no compulsion in religion" ~ Qur'an. It is each persons responsibility to seek truth, accept what they know, or have been taught, or even not believe in God whatsoever ~ it's our choice. Almighty God gave us reason and logic, and gave us free choice... I personally am a new Muslim, and grateful to Allah (swt) for guiding me ~ may His peace and blessings be with you all, YSK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBw2Wne0gAU

PS - By the way - speaking about 'terrorists' everyone should listen to Phoenix tonight... It seems the president sent a message today to congress to pass a law immediately (because of the OWS groups) that sees any American speaking, blogging, protesting, or talking badly about your government will be considered a "terrorist"... and can be arrested and treated as such... so anyone and everyone who protests against the government can and will be (wrongfully) called a terrorist... unbelievable... ysk

In what you say above, you start off by making everyone aware of the misrepresentation and misinformation that abounds everywhere, and then begin discussing religion and then Islam in particular. What you don't mention, is how the Muslims use this very same misinformation. Perhaps as a new Muslim, you are not aware of this. It is called the Principle of Taqiyya;
The principle of al-Taqiyya

"Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible...and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory."

-- Abu Hammid Ghazali

"Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."
- Hadith 5.59.369

The principle and uses of skillful lying

The root word "taqiyya" means to protect against or conceal. As you might gather from the quotes above, the principle of al-Taqiyya is the Islamic justification for lying and deceiving. Al-Taqiyya is drawn explicitly from the words of Muhammad, and from the examples he and his successors set.

The Qur'an and other Islamic books condone lying, but they also praise truth-telling. Assuming for the moment these contradictory exhortations intend some salient point (a true assumption considering the principle in question), and assuming one principle hasn't abrogated the other, approved lying must have a context. That is exactly what Islamic scholars say is the case.

Situations or purposes for which Islamic scholars collectively judge it to be permissible to lie include the following: to reconcile arguments, to settle family disputes, to settle arguments specifically with wives or women, to safeguard one's "innocent" life (i.e., not for criminals on trial), to protect the lives of other Muslims, to defend one's honor, to succeed in jihad or combat, and to spread the practice of Islam.

With the admission that Muslims may lie under many circumstances, trusting a Muslim involves a higher than average degree of risk. We'll get into that later, but recognize that statements like the following only affirm that impression:

"It is not mandatory to practice it (al-Taqiyya) at all times; on the contrary, it is permissible, and sometimes necessary, to abandon it (al-Taqiyya) altogether; as in the case where revealing the truth will further the cause of the religion, and provide a direct service to Islam;"

- al-Shaykh Muhammad Ridha al-Mudhaffar

In other words, 'You don't have to lie all the time; it's okay, and even useful, to sometimes tell the truth'.

Not exactly a Sermon on the Mount-caliber message.

You also make reference to Arabs being a minority of the Muslim World. I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. My observations are about the Religion of Islam, not Arabs. Most Arabs in this country are Christians, in fact I attend an Arab Christian Church (Antiochian) The Arab peoples are wonderful people. Loyal, hardworking, pious and they make great food!

I have personally been involved with Prison Ministry as a Chaplain for the past 15 years. I speak regularly to Muslims and Black Muslims in the prison system. I have personally read the Qur'an many times and have discussed it at length with the men in prison. Most of the men in prison that I know personally have turned to Islam out of dissatisfaction about what they perceive as Christianity, or out of racial hatred. Most of these men are sadly misinformed. Many are motivated by something less than true desire for the Truth. I have found that those who blame others for "anything" and don't take personal responsibility before the Living God for the own soul, are not seekers of Truth. They are just religious! Joiners! Like sheep who follow some idea blindly without using their head and doing their due diligence.

I hope you find truth in your life, that is if you are truly seeking it.

by 7freemom Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:56 am

I so appreciate this forum giving opportunity for any one individual to share and display a portion of who they are and are becoming. Each is so precious in His sight, indeed worth sacrificing life in order to redeem. Our life being what we're given from Him, when we take time to share from our hearts and minds insights, wisdom, experience, compassion to help another in their journey as Truth seekers, we reflect Our Creator, Redeemer, Lord and the sacrifice He made to renew the relationship with Him He so desires with each of us personally. Fellowship in His Presence as His children obedient to His eternal principles is what we're designed for to experience His abundant Life-- Halleluyah!!

From God Calling edited by A.J. Russell for today, "November 18: Dazzling Glory
Arise, shine, for Thy Light is come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. Isaiah lx:1

The Glory of the Lord is the Beauty of His Character. It is risen upon you when you realize it, even though on earth you can do so only in part.
The Beauty of the Purity and Love of God is too dazzling for mortals to see in full.
The Glory of the Lord is also risen upon you when you reflect that Glory in your lives, when in Love, Patience, Service, Purity, whatever it may be, you reveal to the world a something of the Father, an assurance that you have been with Me, your Lord and Saviour."

In His Love, Joy, Peace, Forgiveness, Peace.. Amein

by openmind Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:02 am

by openmind Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:02 am

by H2OMAN Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:19 am

Sorry, Alchemist !

I know it is a big read and many subjects. I was just sure that some of it would appeal to you and might be applicable to your current studies. No need to post about it to forum for me only as it may pertain to other topics. I thought it might add to the wealth of information you currently have internalized. I totally understand the time thing, as I was up LATE watching you tubes that Openmind's post got me started on. Today I am tired, lol.

by Alchemist Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:32 am

Naw, don't worry about it. You know not my humor, though consstraints of time are real. It looks interesting, and at least it's in print so it's not like sitting in front of a vid for 2 hours. Vids and audio are nice but those are for driving (audio only), nap time or at the onset of sleep. Thanks for bumping this thread along, it's a good one.

H2OMAN wrote:Sorry, Alchemist !

I know it is a big read and many subjects. I was just sure that some of it would appeal to you and might be applicable to your current studies. No need to post about it to forum for me only as it may pertain to other topics. I thought it might add to the wealth of information you currently have internalized. I totally understand the time thing, as I was up LATE watching you tubes that Openmind's post got me started on. Today I am tired, lol.

by Alchemist Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:37 am

WOW!

7freemom wrote:I so appreciate this forum giving opportunity for any one individual to share and display a portion of who they are and are becoming. Each is so precious in His sight, indeed worth sacrificing life in order to redeem. Our life being what we're given from Him, when we take time to share from our hearts and minds insights, wisdom, experience, compassion to help another in their journey as Truth seekers, we reflect Our Creator, Redeemer, Lord and the sacrifice He made to renew the relationship with Him He so desires with each of us personally. Fellowship in His Presence as His children obedient to His eternal principles is what we're designed for to experience His abundant Life-- Halleluyah!!

From God Calling edited by A.J. Russell for today, "November 18: Dazzling Glory
Arise, shine, for Thy Light is come, and the Glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. Isaiah lx:1

The Glory of the Lord is the Beauty of His Character. It is risen upon you when you realize it, even though on earth you can do so only in part.
The Beauty of the Purity and Love of God is too dazzling for mortals to see in full.
The Glory of the Lord is also risen upon you when you reflect that Glory in your lives, when in Love, Patience, Service, Purity, whatever it may be, you reveal to the world a something of the Father, an assurance that you have been with Me, your Lord and Saviour."
In His Love, Joy, Peace, Forgiveness, Peace.. Amein

by Alchemist Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:18 pm

We are becoming. There is a story about an ox and his owner. It is told on a series of images with verse. In the beginning of the story, the farmer is pushing and proding the dumb ox. To make it short, it ends with them both back in the valley no longer at odds with each other. One of these archetypes represents the ego.

In Zen Bhuddism the is a saying/thought. It means that before we receive enlightenment/revelation, we have no idea what it will appear as. After we receive it, it may not be what we expected. It might be quit nonclimactic. 'Before a person learns Zen, a mountain is just a mountain. When learning Zen, a mountain becomes more than a mountain. After one becomes a Zen master, he sees a mountain for a mountain.'

There is a similar theme in the scriptures regarding prophecy, in both OT & NT. Now that you are aware of it you'll recognize it as you happen cross it, viz. prophecy is given so it will be recognized afterwards. Sir Isaac Newton spoke also of this, according to his writtings, he discouraged folks from fashioning theirselves prophets by attempting to prognosticate from the scriptures. There is one of his works at the Blue Letter Bible reference section.

by Alchemist Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:28 pm

I find what Seraphim says about the Quran interesring. I did have a dealing with a Muslim who caused great harm then covered it by lying. I always suspected that some of his actions were derived from his religous agenda while having a feduciary responsibility in a secular position. It was difficult to work through that and not attribute my experience to all muslims wearing traditional dress.

I have heard of the Babylonian Talmhud. The existance of these are debated, and writings contain some of the darkest passages of scripture ever.

If we look in the Bible, in particular, the OT, there are dark passages.

Regardless of the book or religion, individuals will gravitate either towards the darkness or the light, fear or love, bad or good depending on their spiritual health and which part of their duality they choose to feed. I am addressing several things together, not all directly to you, YSN.

Without all these divisions, how could they seperate people and guage policy and wage war so effectively? They couldn't.

PS -By the way -speaking abouteveryone should listen to Phoeniseems the president sent a messcongress to pass a law immediatthe OWS groups) that sees any Ablogging, protesting, or talking bgovernment will be considered acan be arrested and treated as sand everyone who protests againgovernment can and will be (wroterrorist... unbelievable... ysk

Answer: First Amandment Song, Feel Good Post
(NOTE: this is not meant as demeaning to faith.)

yoursoulknows wrote:There is much misrepresentation and misinformation fed through the media, based on agendas of the 'powers that be' - the select 'few' dictate how we live, what we think, what we believe, what we know, and what we think is important... we've seen that evidence in Dinar world, the financial world, the military world, the food chain, the drug industry... and for some reason it seems 'Islam' is the 'new enemy' of the western world, just as communism was before. Many are programed to think of Muslims/Islam based on terrorism or Arab culture... yet Arabs make up only 19% of all 1.4 Billion Muslims on the planet. And how many are terrorists out of that number? Very few... Speaking of terror - there are people who terrorize others in every religion and culture... even parents who terrorize their children, men who terrorize their wives.

There is no way anyone is going to convince anyone else about what is right for them... "There is no compulsion in religion" ~ Qur'an. It is each persons responsibility to seek truth, accept what they know, or have been taught, or even not believe in God whatsoever ~ it's our choice. Almighty God gave us reason and logic, and gave us free choice... I personally am a new Muslim, and grateful to Allah (swt) for guiding me ~ may His peace and blessings be with you all, YSK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBw2Wne0gAU

PS - By the way - speaking about 'terrorists' everyone should listen to Phoenix tonight... It seems the president sent a message today to congress to pass a law immediately (because of the OWS groups) that sees any American speaking, blogging, protesting, or talking badly about your government will be considered a "terrorist"... and can be arrested and treated as such... so anyone and everyone who protests against the government can and will be (wrongfully) called a terrorist... unbelievable... ysk

by Alchemist Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:58 pm

H2OMAN,

Have you contemplated this theme in the pre-Christian and non-Hebrew cultures?

H2OMAN wrote:Since this thread is about religous fundamentalism..I thought I'd share a compelling website for my Christian brothers and sisters to decern and ponder. I do this because I personnally have have been blessed with new understanding of some of the more complex beliefs and concepts of the Christian dialogue. I especially hope that Alchemist, who I respect and admire will review this material and possibly comment on some of the more controversial subjects addressed on this site, at some future time. If you are not a Christian please do not visit this site as you will probably be offended. If your Christian beliefs will not allow you to entertain a different perspective, I also suggest you avoid this site as you may also be offended. The web address is : http://www.nccg.org/trinity/1-3.html.

WARNING: As I was reading some of this material I was CONVICTED by the HOLY SPIRIT and brought to tears and painful soul searching. These might not be the WORDS you want to hear! God bless all of you.

by Alchemist Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:49 pm

HERE IS A WORKSPACE FOR BIBLE WORD MEANINGS:

http://dinardaily.forumotion.com/t11592-bible-words-and-meanings

by Alchemist Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:58 pm

Seraphim wrote:

https://youtu.be/BKi-aqebDbc

I watched the vid. The beginning was interesting, stated Muslims consider themselves Muslims first and Americans second. I'm sure the same sentiments would be shared by many Christians who also put their faith first, and often vote by the same.

The second issue is 'culteral jihad.' How would this be different from missionary work, using culturation to further ideas about what one feels is right?

I am glad Ka-mal had a revelation between him and God that made his life better. I am glad that decent people showed him love and acceptance to dispell his fear and anger.

Finally, it is my understanding, according to Quran, the penalty for leaving is death, and enforced in some countries. It is likened to the seditious act of traitorism. I am glad Ka-mal is well.

Thanks for sharing, I will get through the rest when able.

by yoursoulknows Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:50 am

Seraphim wrote:
yoursoulknows wrote:There is much misrepresentation and misinformation fed through the media, based on agendas of the 'powers that be' - the select 'few' dictate how we live, what we think, what we believe, what we know, and what we think is important... we've seen that evidence in Dinar world, the financial world, the military world, the food chain, the drug industry... and for some reason it seems 'Islam' is the 'new enemy' of the western world, just as communism was before. Many are programed to think of Muslims/Islam based on terrorism or Arab culture... yet Arabs make up only 19% of all 1.4 Billion Muslims on the planet. And how many are terrorists out of that number? Very few... Speaking of terror - there are people who terrorize others in every religion and culture... even parents who terrorize their children, men who terrorize their wives.

There is no way anyone is going to convince anyone else about what is right for them... "There is no compulsion in religion" ~ Qur'an. It is each persons responsibility to seek truth, accept what they know, or have been taught, or even not believe in God whatsoever ~ it's our choice. Almighty God gave us reason and logic, and gave us free choice... I personally am a new Muslim, and grateful to Allah (swt) for guiding me ~ may His peace and blessings be with you all, YSK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBw2Wne0gAU

PS - By the way - speaking about 'terrorists' everyone should listen to Phoenix tonight... It seems the president sent a message today to congress to pass a law immediately (because of the OWS groups) that sees any American speaking, blogging, protesting, or talking badly about your government will be considered a "terrorist"... and can be arrested and treated as such... so anyone and everyone who protests against the government can and will be (wrongfully) called a terrorist... unbelievable... ysk

In what you say above, you start off by making everyone aware of the misrepresentation and misinformation that abounds everywhere, and then begin discussing religion and then Islam in particular.
My meaning here is to 'clarify' that since misrepresentation and misinformation abound everywhere it exists in the presentation of ALL religion, Islam included.

What you don't mention, is how the Muslims use this very same misinformation. Perhaps as a new Muslim, you are not aware of this. It is called the Principle of Taqiyya;
I have never heard of this before tonight, so I did some investigation. But I was aware, by reading Qur'an, that we are allowed to 'deny' our religion if we fear oppression, persecution or death - but ONLY if our heart remains true to Allah (swt). Since Almighty God knows what each person thinks, and what is in their hearts, it would be pointless to use this passage in order to 'lie' in other situations... although I'm certain people may use it in any way they wish to further their own agendas (both Muslims and non Muslims!) Allah (swt) knows all, and we will all be judged on our deeds, our prayers and what is in our hearts, and to Him we will be all returned.

The principle of al-Taqiyya
"Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible...and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory."

-- Abu Hammid Ghazali

I am using the Wikipedia definition as my source of info:
Taqiyya (alternate spellings taqiya, taqiyah, tuqyah), meaning religious dissimulation,^[1] is a practice emphasized in Shi'a Islam whereby adherents may conceal their religion when they are under threat, persecution, or compulsion.^[2]
This means a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny
his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they
are under those risks.^[3]

Taqiyya was developed to protect Shi'ites who were usually in
minority and under pressure. In the Shi'a view, taqiyya is lawful in
situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or
property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby.^[1]

The majority Sunni
Muslims rarely found it necessary to hide their beliefs. However, there
are examples of practicing Taqiyya among Sunnis where it was necessary.^[4] In the Sunni view, denying your faith under duress is "only at most permitted and not under all circumstances obligatory".^[5]

In regards to the quote (Abu Hammid Gazali), he is a man giving his own translation, this is not what it says in the Qur'an. As I said in an earlier post, the sects of Islam have made modifications to the religion of which they have (from what I have studied) no authority to do.

"Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."
- Hadith 5.59.369

The principle and uses of skillful lying

The root word "taqiyya" means to protect against or conceal. As you might gather from the quotes above, the principle of al-Taqiyya is the Islamic justification for lying and deceiving. Al-Taqiyya is drawn explicitly from the words of Muhammad, and from the examples he and his successors set.

The Qur'an and other Islamic books condone lying, but they also praise truth-telling. Assuming for the moment these contradictory exhortations intend some salient point (a true assumption considering the principle in question), and assuming one principle hasn't abrogated the other, approved lying must have a context. That is exactly what Islamic scholars say is the case.

Situations or purposes for which Islamic scholars collectively judge it to be permissible to lie include the following: to reconcile arguments, to settle family disputes, to settle arguments specifically with wives or women, to safeguard one's "innocent" life (i.e., not for criminals on trial), to protect the lives of other Muslims, to defend one's honor, to succeed in jihad or combat, and to spread the practice of Islam.

With the admission that Muslims may lie under many circumstances, trusting a Muslim involves a higher than average degree of risk. We'll get into that later, but recognize that statements like the following only affirm that impression:

"It is not mandatory to practice it (al-Taqiyya) at all times; on the contrary, it is permissible, and sometimes necessary, to abandon it (al-Taqiyya) altogether; as in the case where revealing the truth will further the cause of the religion, and provide a direct service to Islam;"

- al-Shaykh Muhammad Ridha al-Mudhaffar

In other words, 'You don't have to lie all the time; it's okay, and even useful, to sometimes tell the truth'.

Not exactly a Sermon on the Mount-caliber message.

The Islamic scholars you list above are scholars in their sects (Shi'ites) and are offering personal interpretations, and represent a minority, it is not the view point in the majority of Islam.

Sunni Islam view (majority)

Over the course of time, the majority Sunni Muslims, who maintained political hegemony in most areas of the Islamic world, rarely found it necessary to hide their beliefs.^[4] In the Sunni view, denying your faith under duress is "only at most permitted and not under all circumstances obligatory".^[5] Al-Tabari
comments on sura XVI, verse 108 (Tafsir, Bulak 1323, xxiv, 122): "If
any one is compelled and professes unbelief with his tongue, while his
heart contradicts him, in order to escape his enemies, no blame falls on
him, because God takes his servants as their hearts believe." This
verse was revealed after Ammar Yasir was forced by the idolaters of Mecca to recant his faith and denounce the Islamic Prophet Muhammad. Al-Tabari explains that concealing one's faith is only justified if the person is in mortal danger, and even then martyrdom
is considered a noble alternative. If threatened, it would be
preferable for a Muslim to migrate to a more peaceful place where a
person may practice their faith openly, "since God's earth is wide."^[5]

No term such as taqiyya is used in Sunni jurisprudence. Protecting one's belief during extreme or exigent circumstances is called idtirar
(إضطرار), which translates to "being forced" or "being coerced", and
this word is not specific to concealing the faith. Sunnis believe that
it is allowed to deny faith under compulsion, threat, or fear of injury,
as long as the heart remains firm in faith,^[21] but they also greatly disagree with some of the Shi'a points of view.^[which?] While one is allowed to consume prohibited or haraam food to protect one's life under the jurisprudence of idtirar,^[22]
some Sunni sources emphasize the fact that a person who prefers to
proclaim their faith in the face of death will have a greater reward
than they who deny their faith to save their lives. For example, in the
Sunni commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari, known as the Fath al-Bari, it is stated that:^[23]

<blockquote class="templatequote">أجمعوا على أن من أكره على الكفر واختار القتل أنه أعظم أجرا عند الله
ممن اختار الرخصة ، وأما غير الكفر فإن أكره على أكل الخنزير وشرب الخمر
مثلا فالفعل أولى

</blockquote>

Which translates to:

<blockquote class="templatequote">There is a consensus that whomsoever is forced into apostasy and
chooses death has a greater reward than a person who takes the license
[to deny one's faith under duress], but if a person is being forced to
eat pork or drink wine, then they should do that [instead of choosing
death].

</blockquote>
You also make reference to Arabs being a minority of the Muslim World. I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. My observations are about the Religion of Islam, not Arabs. Most Arabs in this country are Christians, in fact I attend an Arab Christian Church (Antiochian) The Arab peoples are wonderful people. Loyal, hardworking, pious and they make great food!
I make reference to the Arabs being a minority simply because many things they practice are not Islamic (like the oppression of their women as one example) yet the majority (in the west) see the Arab/Muslim way of living as being the total truth about the religion, that was my point. And yes, they do make great food!

I have personally been involved with Prison Ministry as a Chaplain for the past 15 years. I speak regularly to Muslims and Black Muslims in the prison system. I have personally read the Qur'an many times and have discussed it at length with the men in prison. Most of the men in prison that I know personally have turned to Islam out of dissatisfaction about what they perceive as Christianity, or out of racial hatred. Most of these men are sadly misinformed. Many are motivated by something less than true desire for the Truth. I have found that those who blame others for "anything" and don't take personal responsibility before the Living God for the own soul, are not seekers of Truth. They are just religious! Joiners! Like sheep who follow some idea blindly without using their head and doing their due diligence.

I hope you find truth in your life, that is if you are truly seeking it.

Each has their road, and their own reasons for their beliefs. If it is true that some have taken Islam as their faith out of racial hatred that is unfortunate, though none of us can say for sure what is in their hearts, nor what credit they (or any other human being) has with God. It's not for us to judge. Since none of us know what responsibility any other human being takes for their soul, nor for their sins, nor do we know their sincerity in repentance, nor the forgiveness/mercy granted by the Almighty it may be inappropriate for us to comment about them (or anyone) as being "sadly misinformed" or "sheep" or otherwise...

Each can find info to support their "positions"... I am not here to convince you, or anyone, of what to believe. I was asked a few questions, and answered. It seems you have some genuine concerns so I have taken time to address them, however I am neither here to debate my position nor defend my beliefs.

Your comment above "I hope you find truth in your life, that is if you are truly seeking it" seems akin to you saying I am wrong, or I am lying about it, or even possibly that I'm misguided, simply because my own due diligence (and Almighty God) has guided me to Islam. Hopefully it was not meant that way.... cheers!

Peace and blessings, YSK

by yoursoulknows Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:29 am

I'm sorry to hear of your dealings with a Muslim that caused great harm. It is unfortunate that so few have faith, true faith - the kind of faith where one knows (your soul knows!) that every thing they do, think, feel and plan is known - recorded - and we will be accountable. Even for our tongue - God says of all the organs, the one that will bring us the most trouble and lead many to the fire, is the tongue. We must guard our thoughts, our tongue, our feelings - I believe that is having true faith. Good for you for working through that situation and not paint all Muslims with the same brush.

I don't know of the Babylonian Talmhud... have you heard of Jinn? "The fuel of the fire will be men and jinn" I've learned some things about them..

Regarding people it is true, there is light and darkness in each, and we resonate towards what we are... Not because someone is a Muslims means they will go to Paradise, there will be many who will not make it. And there will be Jews and Christians who go to Genna (Heaven), it says this in the Qur'an. It is the person "inside" - the soul - that God judges, the intentions, the good deeds, charity, prayers, belief in the One God and his Angels, Messengers, and in the Day of Judgement... some of what we are judged on.

We are more similar than different in religion - the Jews, Christians and Muslims. But if we are kept 'divided' and kept 'hating' it is easier to control us than a united brotherhood of mankind. I saw a video interview of Aaron Russo, filmmaker, and he was saying that the 'elite' agenda was to get two things out of our lives #1) God and
#2) Family... very interesting video, on YouTube.

Chat later Alchemist,
I resonate towards you and Openmind!
Peace and Blessings, YSK

Alchemist wrote:I find what Seraphim says about the Quran interesring. I did have a dealing with a Muslim who caused great harm then covered it by lying. I always suspected that some of his actions were derived from his religous agenda while having a feduciary responsibility in a secular position. It was difficult to work through that and not attribute my experience to all muslims wearing traditional dress.

I have heard of the Babylonian Talmhud. The existance of these are debated, and writings contain some of the darkest passages of scripture ever.

If we look in the Bible, in particular, the OT, there are dark passages.

Regardless of the book or religion, individuals will gravitate either towards the darkness or the light, fear or love, bad or good depending on their spiritual health and which part of their duality they choose to feed. I am addressing several things together, not all directly to you, YSN.

Without all these divisions, how could they seperate people and guage policy and wage war so effectively? They couldn't.

PS -By the way -speaking abouteveryone should listen to Phoeniseems the president sent a messcongress to pass a law immediatthe OWS groups) that sees any Ablogging, protesting, or talking bgovernment will be considered acan be arrested and treated as sand everyone who protests againgovernment can and will be (wroterrorist... unbelievable... ysk

Answer: First Amandment Song, Feel Good Post
(NOTE: this is not meant as demeaning to faith.)

yoursoulknows wrote:There is much misrepresentation and misinformation fed through the media, based on agendas of the 'powers that be' - the select 'few' dictate how we live, what we think, what we believe, what we know, and what we think is important... we've seen that evidence in Dinar world, the financial world, the military world, the food chain, the drug industry... and for some reason it seems 'Islam' is the 'new enemy' of the western world, just as communism was before. Many are programed to think of Muslims/Islam based on terrorism or Arab culture... yet Arabs make up only 19% of all 1.4 Billion Muslims on the planet. And how many are terrorists out of that number? Very few... Speaking of terror - there are people who terrorize others in every religion and culture... even parents who terrorize their children, men who terrorize their wives.

There is no way anyone is going to convince anyone else about what is right for them... "There is no compulsion in religion" ~ Qur'an. It is each persons responsibility to seek truth, accept what they know, or have been taught, or even not believe in God whatsoever ~ it's our choice. Almighty God gave us reason and logic, and gave us free choice... I personally am a new Muslim, and grateful to Allah (swt) for guiding me ~ may His peace and blessings be with you all, YSK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBw2Wne0gAU

PS - By the way - speaking about 'terrorists' everyone should listen to Phoenix tonight... It seems the president sent a message today to congress to pass a law immediately (because of the OWS groups) that sees any American speaking, blogging, protesting, or talking badly about your government will be considered a "terrorist"... and can be arrested and treated as such... so anyone and everyone who protests against the government can and will be (wrongfully) called a terrorist... unbelievable... ysk

by Seraphim Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:14 am

Dear YSK

With regard to your last remark regarding what I intended by my words, ....if you are truly seeking Truth...etc., Frankly, I have no way of knowing much about you at all! That is one of the main problems with threads like this. Words, words, words.... but, none of us have any real, personal, in person, relationship with each other. That Is why, I have tried to keep my comments directed toward Islam, and not individuals. There are some Muslims that I like a great deal and have a personal relationship with. It is Islam, with which I have the problem. I have studied Islam intently for approximately 14 years, and what I know is that individual Muslims use "many", some contradictory, defenses of Islam. Any criticism of Islam usually brings a strong reaction along with ill conceived polemics directed towards Christianity. I have kept my remarks to a civil tone, but I could present historical and statistical information about what is transpiring now, even while we are having this discussion, in the world of Islamic Jihad, that would shock and amaze every reader of this thread!

Islam is different from every other religion in this, it is a political system. Much has been written about this, although I doubt you would personally lend credence to much of it. The following is one of the more benign commentaries by a well known British Historian;

Bernard Lewis, FBA (born May 31, 1916) is a British-American historian, scholar in Oriental studies, and political commentator. He is the Cleveland E. Dodge Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University. He specializes in the history of Islam and the interaction between Islam and the West, and is especially famous in academic circles for his works on the history of the Ottoman Empire.

Lewis served in the British Army in the Royal Armoured Corps and Intelligence Corps during the Second World War before being seconded to the Foreign Office. After the war, he returned to the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London and was appointed to the new chair in Near and Middle Eastern History.

Lewis is a widely read expert on the Middle East, and is regarded as one of the West’s leading scholars of that region. His advice has been frequently sought by policymakers, including the George W. Bush administration. In the Encyclopedia of Historians and Historical Writing Martin Kramer, whose Ph.D. thesis was directed by Lewis, considered that, over a 60-year career, he has emerged as "the most influential postwar historian of Islam and the Middle East." He says.....

I turn now from the accidental to the essential factors, to those deriving from the very nature of Islamic society, tradition, and thought. The first of these is the authoritarianism, perhaps we may even say the totalitarianism, of the Islamic political tradition… There are no parliaments or representative assemblies of any kind, no councils or communes, no chambers of nobility or estates, no municipalities in the history of Islam; nothing but the sovereign power, to which the subject owed complete and unwavering obedience as a religious duty imposed by the Holy Law…For the last thousand years, the political thinking of Islam has been dominated by such maxims as “tyranny is better than anarchy,” and “whose power is established, obedience to him is incumbent.” End of quote....

How can the rest of us get along, or trust a political/religious movement that wants to impose sharia law on the entire planet?

My question to you YSK is this; Are you an American first? or a Muslim first?

If you are a Muslim first, then do you believe that your duty to Allah is to bring the United States into subjection to Islam? If you say no, then should I share with everyone what is happening in the United States now as a result of Islamic Jihad by all the other Muslims that are not a part of your "peaceful sect"?

It is the actions that speak, much louder than words. If Islam is truly a religion of peace, as virtually "all" Muslims claim, then why do they resort to violence? Please don't tell me that this violence is only perpetuated by a few radicals, remember I have studied Islam for 14 years.

So, the disconnect can only be explained in very few terms;

Muslims practice Taqiyya.....? (it's ok to lie because our religion is the only true one, and allegiance to Allah is above all and our duty is to to bring everyone into subjection. We are lying for their own good, so that we can make them acceptable to Allah....

I have heard it all! from many Muslims who have converted to Christianity and spilled their hearts out. (we don't use water boarding!) Just Love. Not words, actions.

by Seraphim Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:29 am

Dear YSK:

I have quoted from your post above with regard to Arabs. Your quote is as follows

"I make reference to the Arabs being a minority simply because many things they practice are not Islamic (like the oppression of their women as one example) yet the majority (in the west) see the Arab/Muslim way of living as being the total truth about the religion, that was my point. And yes, they do make great food!

Are you saying that the oppression of women would not be tolerated in Islam?

Are you saying that non-Muslim Arabs oppress their women?

Please clarify as most Arabs in the West are Christians, not Muslims!

by Alchemist Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:58 am

I am going to respond to a few statements from the above. Please keep in mind, when I mention certain groups it is not meant in a bad way.

"How can the rest of us get along, or trust a political/religious movement that wants to impose sharia law on the entire planet?"

This is a common type of fear producing divisive statement. It is fallacous in that it makes a global application of a principle that is not held by all. Religion should be of no compulsion. Then there are who choose to compel. 100% attributions are usually false, there are like 400 variou Islamic sects and many various personalities in each sect.

"Islam is different from every other religion in this, it is a political system."

Now, I love this sort of statement. Constantine, Rome, Christianity - the Roman Catholic Church (especially early on and through the Inquisition) - was a political body and still considered so by many. This is a singular example of one church. Zionism, a clearly political/religous movement, it worked it's aim for over 50 years before it was successful in overthrowing a peaceful Palenstine, and still seeks specific political goals from behind closed doors of political halls and corporations, does it not?

"I have heard it all! from many Muslims who have converted to Christianity and spilled their hearts out."

In general, anybody who converts to anything will usually contrast their conversion as better by framing where they came from as not as good. There are also Christians who convert to Islam. These are the favorites of prosyletizers. It creates an irrefutible logic for many who listen, especially those that want to believe. Quite often, an individual will leave a circumstance that was uncomfortable, perhaps religous abuse paired with other forms of abuse, and go to another circumstance. People at such junctures are particularly likely to be influenced, they occasionally fall prey for various cults or sects.

by Alchemist Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:12 pm

From: nineplanets.org/days.html
(i don't know the link deosn't work)

[This is interesting and demonstrates the impact of the spheres in our popular culture.]

Days of the Week
The seven-day system we use is based on the
ancient astrological notion that the seven known
celestial bodies influence what happens on Earth
and that each of these celestial bodies controls
the first hour of the day named after it. This
system was brought into Hellenistic Egypt from
Mesopotamia, where astrology had been
practiced for millennia and where seven had
always been a propitious number. In A.D. 321
the Emperor Constantine the Great grafted this
astrological system onto the Roman calendar,
made the first day of this new week a day of
rest and worship for all, and imposed the
following sequence and names to the days of
the week. This new Roman system was adopted
with modifications throughout most of western
Europe: in the Germanic languages, such as Old
English, the names of four of the Roman gods
were converted into those of the corresponding
Germanic gods:
Celestial Germanic modern modern
Body Latin godEnglish Italian
------- -------- -------- --------- ----------
Sun Solis Sunday domenica
Moon Lunae Monday lunedì
Mars Martis Tiu Tuesday martedì
Mercury Mercurii Wodan Wednesday
mercoledì
Jupiter Jovis Donar Thursday giovedì
Venus Veneris Freya Friday venerdì
Saturn Saturni Saturday sabato
The Latin names for the weekdays survive in the
modern Romance languages (though the
weekend day names have been altered). Also,
Japanese words for the days of the week also
correspond indirectly to the same planets.
However, Prof. Neves of Universidade Nova de
Lisboa informs me that there are remarkable
exceptions: at least in Hebrew, in Greek, in
Arabic, and in Portuguese (and in languages that
were informed by those, like the Timorese
Tetum), the days of the week are numbered.
Sunday is number one (or day of the Lord in
Portuguese - Domingo- and in Greek -Kiriaki).
Friday is number six (except in Arabic, which
calls it Day of the Gatthering) and all 4
languages call Sabbath (Sabado,as-Sabt, etc) to
Saturday.
Months
Two of the English month names are also have
planetary connections: January is named for
Janus and March is named for Mars.

by Seraphim Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:49 pm

Alchemist wrote:I am going to respond to a few statements from the above. Please keep in mind, when I mention certain groups it is not meant in a bad way.

"How can the rest of us get along, or trust a political/religious movement that wants to impose sharia law on the entire planet?"

This is a common type of fear producing divisive statement. It is fallacous in that it makes a global application of a principle that is not held by all. Religion should be of no compulsion. Then there are who choose to compel. 100% attributions are usually false, there are like 400 variou Islamic sects and many various personalities in each sect.

"Islam is different from every other religion in this, it is a political system."

Now, I love this sort of statement. Constantine, Rome, Christianity - the Roman Catholic Church (especially early on and through the Inquisition) - was a political body and still considered so by many. This is a singular example of one church. Zionism, a clearly political/religous movement, it worked it's aim for over 50 years before it was successful in overthrowing a peaceful Palenstine, and still seeks specific political goals from behind closed doors of political halls and corporations, does it not?

"I have heard it all! from many Muslims who have converted to Christianity and spilled their hearts out."

In general, anybody who converts to anything will usually contrast their conversion as better by framing where they came from as not as good.(THIS DOESN'T MAKE WHAT THEY SAY FALSE!) There are also Christians who convert to Islam. These are the favorites of prosyletizers. It creates an irrefutible logic for many who listen,

especially those that want to believe. Quite often, an individual will leave a circumstance that was uncomfortable, perhaps religous abuse paired with other forms of abuse, and go to another circumstance. People at such junctures are particularly likely to be influenced, they occasionally fall prey for various cults or sects.

First, Sharia Law is already a reality in America, and it is creeping ever larger. The U.K. is also a good example of what has and is happening with Sharia Law. Your statements about Constantine, Rome, Christianity are not really relevant to any real discussion about Islam today. These examples examples are simply grasping at straws, very old ones! The exceptions in your remarks might be Zionism. This is truly a political movement.

The following article is from the American Thinker;

The incompatibility of Islamic sharia law with secular courts stems from the underpinning of Islamism -- the unyielding union of the laws and punishments of the Qu'ran and Hadiths with the country's legal and political system. Sharia law is the legislation of these religious and criminal rules, which rejects America's constitutional secularism and legal penalties.
The Qu'ran commands Muslims to change secular laws to conform to sharia, eventually establishing Islamic law worldwide. Islamic courts want their fatwas to supersede the civil and criminal laws, untying Muslims from civil secular courts.
The facts reveal that in 2008, when the first sharia court was recognized in the U.K., within one year, over 85 recognized sharia courts were established within the U.K.'s Tribunal Court system. The problem with this rapidly spreading dogma is that several of these courts have issued some fatwas that are completely incompatible with British and European law.

As Islam is a male-dominated ideology, the laws of the Qu'ran make half of its devotees, its female population, second-class citizens. This inequality has drawn recent attention to the need for additional British legislation to rein in these courts so they abide by British law.
It appears that once any legal system opens its doors to Islamic law, that door will be hard to close...and eventually, the only thing missing will be a parallel Islamic government.
But even with this reality in front of Americans, there are still many who insist that our laws will prevent such circumstances from ever occurring in the U.S. And because of this nonchalant attitude, there are numbers of people, both Muslim and non-Muslim, who believe that sharia law is not a threat to non-Muslim Americans or to the Western liberal democratic rule of law.

Sharia Law Is in the U.S.

The possibility that Muslim-only towns and urban enclaves could be created in the U.S. seems unimaginable to most Americans, but it already is a reality. Just travel 150 mile northwest of New York City to the woods of the western Catskills, and you will find Islamberg, a private Muslim community founded in 1980 by Sheikh Syed Mubarik Ali Shah Gilani. Sheikh Gilani is said to be one of the founders of Jamaat al-Fuqra, a terrorist organization believed to be responsible for dozens of bombings and murders in the U.S. and abroad.
Islamberg is only one of twenty to thirty Muslim-only communities and training compounds that this Pakistani group supports through Muslim affiliates in America. This radical group has purchased land in isolated areas close to city networks and infrastructure. Jamaat al-Fuqra now has sites in Alabama, Georgia, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, Pennsylvania, California, Washington, Colorado, Michigan, and Illinois, as well as Canada, Venezuela, and Trinidad.
The sharia debate in the U.S. is heating up as more and more Americans are reacting to lawyers requesting rulings based on sharia law, and local judges agreeing to make them. This has happened in a New Jersey divorce case, a Maryland child custody case, and most recently in a Florida property case. These cases are now a precedent for other American-Muslim communities. In addition, according to the Center for Security Policy study that was published in May 2011, there are actually over fifty Appellate Court cases from 23 states that all involve conflicts between sharia law and American state law.

There are numbers of Muslim community leaders challenging the delicate line between religious freedom and the laws against state religion by petitioning in favor of living under sharia law. The moment one court allows the establishment of an independently ruled enclave, others courts in liberal cities across the nation will petition for the same opportunity.

Another example of efforts to usurp the Constitution are the actions of the global Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), whose main agenda is to have "hate speech" laws enforced against anyone who criticizes Islam. And, unfortunately, there are those determined to enforce sharia on their own who attack and murder any nearby dissenters. The Qu'ran justifies and protects these people's violence by declaring that it is blasphemous to mock or degrade any component of Islam. According to sharia law, such activity is punishable by death.
It is this ongoing effort to shut down public criticism of Islam that presents the gravest danger to America -- one that the Muslim Brotherhood and its Salafist organizations regard as key to limiting individual rights over the rights of the community. The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), along with other Islamic activist groups, continues to push back, often with demonization of character and follow-up lawsuits. Recently, intimidation and character assassination have been used against U.S. politicians who question Islamism or want hearings on issues relating to radical Islamic terrorism, along with those Congressmen who introduce state legislation to ban all foreign law.
Preventing Sharia through Legislation

The Court of Appeals is the system used to review lower court decisions and believed by some to be the stopgap against foreign law, including sharia, from entering our legal system. However, some Islamic cases that have reached the Appellate Court for review have retained the sharia rulings even in the face of sharia's contradiction to American civil law.

The U.S. is heading towards dangerous territory if its citizens buy into the twisting of constitutional amendments. Indeed, what everyone really needs is the interpretations of the laws as they are written in order to prevent the encroachment of Islamism into the court system.
The establishment of sharia courts within the arbitration laws is a leading objective of every peace-loving, kindhearted, moderate male Muslim. I have asked several male American Muslims whom I know, some living very happily in my community and in the U.S., what their one greatest wish is. The answer is always the same: "Everyone should be a Muslim."

The line must be drawn in states' legislatures, not in the courts. It is imperative that we recognize the differences between the religion of Islam and the ideology of Islamism. Political correctness is leading to interpretations of the Constitution and its amendments that are pushing America across that line.

If non-Muslim Americans do not recognize how close they are to the precipice, then they are beyond a shadow of a doubt going to fall victims to an Islamic conquest. Time is running out.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/11/the_case_for_banning_sharia_law_in_america.html#ixzz1eCLKqeVc

by Seraphim Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:02 pm

If Islam is a religion of peace, then why are these acts not condemned by the "peaceful Muslims" If one does a little search for terrorist acts worldwide, then this little list presented here is almost insignificant.
Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans
The following timeline lists terrorist attacks against the United States and Americans living either in the U.S. or abroad.

1920
Sept. 16, New York City: TNT bomb planted in unattended horse-drawn wagon exploded on Wall Street opposite House of Morgan, killing 35 people and injuring hundreds more. Bolshevist or anarchist terrorists believed responsible, but crime never solved.
1975
Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.
1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.
1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)
2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.
2003 1
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.
2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.
2008
May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.
June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.
July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.
Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.
Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.
Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.
2009
Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.
April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.
June 1, Little Rock, Arkansas: Abdulhakim Muhammed, a Muslim convert from Memphis, Tennessee, is charged with shooting two soldiers outside a military recruiting center. One is killed and the other is wounded. In a January 2010 letter to the judge hearing his case, Muhammed asked to change his plea from not guilty to guilty, claimed ties to al-Qaeda, and called the shooting a jihadi attack "to fight those who wage war on Islam and Muslims."
Dec. 25: A Nigerian man on a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit attempted to ignite an explosive device hidden in his underwear. The explosive device that failed to detonate was a mixture of powder and liquid that did not alert security personnel in the airport. The alleged bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told officials later that he was directed by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. The suspect was already on the government's watch list when he attempted the bombing; his father, a respected Nigerian banker, had told the U.S. government that he was worried about his son's increased extremism.
Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It's the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.
2010
May 1, New York City: a car bomb is discovered in Times Square, New York City after smoke is seen coming from a vehicle. The bomb was ignited, but failed to detonate and was disarmed before it could cause any harm. Times Square was evacuated as a safety precaution. Faisal Shahzad pleads guilty to placing the bomb as well as 10 terrorism and weapons charges.
May 10, Jacksonville, Florida: a pipe bomb explodes while approximately 60 Muslims are praying in the mosque. The attack causes no injuries.
Oct. 29: two packages are found on separate cargo planes. Each package contains a bomb consisting of 300 to 400 grams (11-14 oz) of plastic explosives and a detonating mechanism. The bombs are discovered as a result of intelligence received from Saudi Arabia's security chief. The packages, bound from Yemen to the United States, are discovered at en route stop-overs, one in England and one in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.
2011
Jan. 17, Spokane, Washington: a pipe bomb is discovered along the route of the Martin Luther King, Jr. memorial march. The bomb, a "viable device" set up to spray marchers with shrapnel and to cause multiple casualties, is defused without any injuries.
See also U.S.-Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations; Suspected al-Qaeda Terrorist Acts.

Read more: Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html#ixzz1eCOKb6hV

by Seraphim Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:10 pm

I recognize that there is good and bad in all religions. This is due to the fact that there are good and bad people in the world. While there have been acts of Christian Terrorism, by extremists, a simple study of the number of Christians Worldwide and Acts of Terrorism committed by them, compared to a list of Acts of Terror committed by Muslims Worldwide, would reveal that the world has a real problem with Muslims.

by Alchemist Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:29 pm

I will agree with you that Islam may be more prone to utilization for terror. The ancient Hebrews had there day. The political Christian church theirs. The Zionists theres. The Muslims theres. One thing cannot stand by itself. For Islamic terror to thrive, certain geopolitical conditions must be present. They currently are. As the other groups have stopped the terror or are slowly withdrawing, Islam terror is on a rise. One must look at all factors and put the puzzle pieces together. Hate begets hate and love, love. There are a handful of people fomenting a third world war as they take shape like chamaeleons, promoting the conflict from both sides and within. It is the choice of the inhabitants of this world to allow this, there is a choice...

Seraphim wrote:I recognize that there is good and bad in all religions. This is due to the fact that there are good and bad people in the world. While there have been acts of Christian Terrorism, by extremists, a simple study of the number of Christians Worldwide and Acts of Terrorism committed by them, compared to a list of Acts of Terror committed by Muslims Worldwide, would reveal that the world has a real problem with Muslims.

by Alchemist Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:33 pm

"THE FOOL stands upon a precipice..."

by Alchemist Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:34 pm

He does not yet realize he has everything he needs...

by openmind Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:38 pm

Alchemist wrote:I will agree with you that Islam may be more prone to utilization for terror. The ancient Hebrews had there day. The political Christian church theirs. The Zionists theres. The Muslims theres. One thing cannot stand by itself. For Islamic terror to thrive, certain geopolitical conditions must be present. They currently are. As the other groups have stopped the terror or are slowly withdrawing, Islam terror is on a rise. One must look at all factors and put the puzzle pieces together. Hate begets hate and love, love. There are a handful of people fomenting a third world war as they take shape like chamaeleons, promoting the conflict from both sides and within. It is the choice of the inhabitants of this world to allow this, there is a choice...

Seraphim wrote:I recognize that there is good and bad in all religions. This is due to the fact that there are good and bad people in the world. While there have been acts of Christian Terrorism, by extremists, a simple study of the number of Christians Worldwide and Acts of Terrorism committed by them, compared to a list of Acts of Terror committed by Muslims Worldwide, would reveal that the world has a real problem with Muslims.

Hear, Hear!

by Alchemist Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:59 pm

YSK,

"have you heard of Jinn? "The fuel of the fire will be men and jinn" I've learned some things about them.."

Yes I have. Though the full extent of Islamic tradition is lost to me. I did a word study somewhere about a word related to the djin, this language may be related to the root of the word genius. The heart should always guide the intellect.

by yoursoulknows Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:51 am

Seraphim wrote:

My question to you YSK is this; Are you an American first? or a Muslim first?
First I am a Muslim. Second I am a human being and one of Gods many creations out of many tribes, colors and nations of people all living on this planet (which was also created by the same one and only God) with the means to sustain all human life. Third I am Canadian, my country of residence and citizenship. Fourth I am British, my country of birth and citizenship. The last two don't really mean anything, borders and nations are all different things that divide people who are all created by the one God, upon Whom each and every thing depends. Defining ourselves by flags, races, or languages only seem important if it is all we believe exists, and that our country, nationality and language is the entire purpose for life and there is nothing after we die - we are all humans or 'humanity' created by one God on one planet - seeking for our eternal life to be in paradise and that we are spared from the fire... imo.

If you are a Muslim first, then do you believe that your duty to Allah is to bring the United States into subjection to Islam? If you say no, then should I share with everyone what is happening in the United States now as a result of Islamic Jihad by all the other Muslims that are not a part of your "peaceful sect"?

My duty to Allah (swt) is to worship Him and be grateful for all the bounties He has given me which, were I to try and count, I could never even compute the number. My duty to Allah (swt - or God - which would you prefer I use?) is to fear Him, love Him, ask for His guidance, mercy and forgiveness (5 times every day), to be dutiful to my parents and kind to them in their old age, to do good deeds, to give charity, to be fair, to be humble, to be just and forgive others any wrong they may do to me. My duty to Allah (swt) is to not be vain, nor egotistical, nor a braggart, neither to be mean nor stingy with the bounty He provides, nor love the material things this temporary life offers more than Allah and the Hereafter. My duty is to speak truth, not say falsehoods against any person, believer or unbeliever. My duty to Allah does not include convincing people that they should be Muslim - we are not 'door knockers' or missionaries ("There is NO compulsion in religion" - Qur'an), the Almighty does not need us, we need Him.

You say: "part of your "peaceful sect" - Islam a Sect? No, actually Islam is a recognized religion, actually one of the three major Abrahamic religions:

According to Wikipedia:
The three major Abrahamic religions are, in chronological order of founding, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The three main Abrahamic religions have certain similarities. All are monotheistic, and conceive God to be a transcendent Creator-figure and the source of moral law,^[8] and their sacred narratives feature many of the same figures, histories and places in each, although they often present them with different roles, perspectives and meanings.

All the major Abrahamic religions claim a direct lineage to Abraham.

Abraham is recorded in the Torah as the ancestor of the Israelites through his son Isaac, born to Sarah through a promise made in Genesis.^{[Gen. 17:16]}^[10]
All variants of Judaism through the early 20th century (prophetic,
rabbinic, reform, and conservative) were founded by Israelite
descendants.
The basic text of Christianity is the Bible, the first part of which, the Old Testament, is a modified form of the Jewish Hebrew Bible, leading to the same ancestry claim as above.
It is the Islamic tradition that Muhammad, as an Arab, is descended from Abraham's son Ishmael. Jewish tradition also equates the descendants of Ishmael, "Ishmaelites", with Arabs, as the descendants of Isaac by Jacob named Israel are the "Israelites".^[11]
A response to your comments on subjection is below.

It is the actions that speak, much louder than words. If Islam is truly a religion of peace, as virtually "all" Muslims claim, then why do they resort to violence? Please don't tell me that this violence is only perpetuated by a few radicals, remember I have studied Islam for 14 years.

Actions speak louder than words - Christians, Jews and Muslims and so many other religions are all guilty of great violence, throughout history... not only Muslims - I'm sure everyone reading will agree. Mankind is what it is... So the question should be: Why do human beings of every race, religion, nationality and language, resort to violence? Likely because they do not believe that one day they will be accountable for their actions, nor do they believe that there are records kept of everything we do and say, nor that there is punishment awaiting from God that no soul can escape...

So, the disconnect can only be explained in very few terms;

Muslims practice Taqiyya.....? (it's ok to lie because our religion is the only true one, and allegiance to Allah is above all and our duty is to to bring everyone into subjection. We are lying for their own good, so that we can make them acceptable to Allah....

As I explained in my other post - Taqiyya is something perpetuated by a 'sect' of Islam - the only thing we are allowed to deny is our faith, and only if our life is threatened or we feel in danger of being harmed. It seems that Allah (swt) in his wisdom knew a day would arrive where a Muslim will be persecuted for being a Muslim, maybe we are even here... It appears you did not read my post? Based on your posts you already have your mind set about Islam so what is the point of the questions? And, truth be told, all human beings lie, regardless of religion, and many justify their lies easily... too easily, unfortunately.

Our duty to Allah is not to bring everyone into subjection... it is our duty to invite non Muslims to look at the religion - but regardless of how much we may want them to be a Muslim, regardless of how much we love them and wish they would 'see' Islam, or regardless of how much we pray for someone to convert - it is Allah who guides, and Allah's choice on whom He guides, it is beyond any humans control. This is stated in the Qur'an. So how could it be "my duty to have everyone subjugate to Islam" when it is not in my control if Allah guides them? Not sure how I can make sense out of nonsense?

I have heard it all! from many Muslims who have converted to Christianity and spilled their hearts out. (we don't use water boarding!) Just Love. Not words, actions.

Islam is not an easy religion, we pray 5 times daily - the first prayer we get out of bed at dawn for... we wash before each prayer, we fast during the month of Ramadan (no food or anything to drink from sunrise to sunset), we must give charity, we must have faith - it is a way of life, and we are responsible for our actions/words/thoughts/feelings. For someone who leaves Islam it may well be a relief to them...

Water boarding? Isn't that what the US government just ruled as acceptable to use on their prisoners, and ruled as 'not' being torture?

When one has an open mind it's like having a glass turned right side up, and the mind can accept/receive information. When one has the glass turned upside down nothing can go in, regardless of how much one pours...

YSK

by yoursoulknows Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:28 am

Alchemist wrote:YSK,

"have you heard of Jinn? "The fuel of the fire will be men and jinn" I've learned some things about them.."

Yes I have. Though the full extent of Islamic tradition is lost to me. I did a word study somewhere about a word related to the djin, this language may be related to the root of the word genius. The heart should always guide the intellect.

Alchemist,

This is all I have learned.

Jinn comes from the word 'genie' - not genius. Jinn were created a long time before Man, and Shaytaan (Satan) is a jinn. He was the favorite of God from among the jinn, and resided in the heavens, with the angels and Allah (swt). Jinn were given 'free will' - as was man - but apparently are not nearly as intelligent as man. We are told the Angels can only follow Gods commands, and do not have free will... the reason why Satan had the 'choice' of whether or not to prostrate before Adam (pbuh) was because he is a jinn.

After Satan was cast out he tempted Adam (pbuh) and Eve in the garden (in Qur'an it says both were tempted at the same time, and not that Eve was tempted first and that she tempted Adam pbuh) and all were cast out till the Day of Reckoning. Jinn live in this world alongside us, in an alternate dimension, we cannot see them. They like to reside in dirty places (washrooms for example), empty and abandoned houses, graveyards. It is forbidden for mankind to communicate with the jinn and vice versa. Some disobey, from both man and jinn. That is what I've learned, cheers, YSK

by Seraphim Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:18 am

Dear YSK:
Just a few coments:

I have quoted from your post above where you correct me for referring to your sect as follows;

You say: "part of your "peaceful sect" - Islam a Sect? No, actually Islam is a recognized religion, actually one of the three major Abrahamic religions:

Apparently you are not aware of the numerous "sects" of Islam. Let me list them for you;

Name of the Sect

Basic Belief Distinguishing
it from Others

1.

Jarudiyah

Followers of Abu'l-Jarud, They believe Prophet (pbuh) designated Ali (ra) as the Imam by his characteristics but not by name.

2.

Sulaimaniah / Jaririyah

Followers of Sulaiman ibn-Jarir al-Zaidi, They believed Imamat was a matter of conference and could be confirmed by two best Muslims.

3.

Butriyah / Hurariyah

They did not dispute the Khilafat of Uthman, neither they attack him nor praise him.

4.

Yaqubiyya

They accepted the Khilafat of Abu Bakr and Umar, but did not reject those who rejected these Khulafaa. They also believed that Muslim committers of Major sins will be in heck fire forever.

5.

Hanafiyah

Followers of the Imammate of Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah. They believe that Allah might have had a beginning.

6.

Karibiyah

They believed that Imam Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah is not dead and is the Imam Ghaib (in disappearance) and the expected Mahdi.

7.

Kamiliyah

Followers of abu-Kamil. They believed companions to be heretic because they forsook their allegiance to Ali and condemn Ali for ceasing to fight them. They believed in the returning of the dead before the Day of Resurrection and that Satan is right in preferring fire to clay.

8.

Muhammadiyyah / Mughairiyah

Followers of Muhammad ibn-'Abdullah ibn-al-Hassan. They do not believe that Imam Muhammad ibn-'Abdullah died and that he is Imam Ghaib and awaited Mahdi.

9.

Baqiriyah

Followers of Muhammad ibn-'Ali al-Baqir. They believe him to be the Imam Ghaib and expected Mahdi.

10.

Nadisiyah

They believe that those who consider themselves better than anyone else are Kafirs (disbelievers).

11.

Sha'iyah

They believe that the one who has recited La Ilaha Il-Allah (There is none worthy of worship except Allah), whatever she or he does, will never be punished.

12.

Ammaliyah

They believe that faith for one is what he/she sincerely practices.

13.

Ismailiyah

They believe in the continuity of Imammate among the descendants of Ismail ibn-Ja'far.

14.

Musawiyah / Mamturah

They believe Musa ibn-Ja'far to be the Imam Ghaib and expected Mahdi.

15.

Mubarikiyah

They believe in the continuity of Imammate among the descendants of Muhammad ibn-Ismail ibn-Ja'far.

16.

Kathiyah / Ithn 'Ashariya (the Twelvers)

They believe that expected Mahdi will be the twelveth Imam among the descendants of 'Ali ibn-abi-Talib.

17.

Hashamiya / Taraqibiyah

They Predicate a body to Allah and also allege Prophet (pbuh) of disobedience to Allah.

18.

Zarariyah

They believed that Allah did not live nor had any attributes till He created for Himself life and His attributes.

19.

Younasiyah

Followers of Younas ibn-'Abd-al-Rahman al-Kummi. They believe that Allah is borne by bearers of His Throne, though He is stronger than they.

20.

Shaitaniyah / Shireekiyah

They believed in the view that deeds of servants of Allah are substances; and a servant of Allah can really produce a substance.

21.

Azraqiah

Followers of Nafi ibn-al-Azraq. They do not believe in the good dreams and vision and claim that all forms of revelation has ended.

22.

Najadat

Followers of Najdah ibn-'Amir al-Hanafi. They abolished the punishment for drinking wine also they believed that sinners of this sect would not be treated in hellfire but some other place before allowed in paradise.

23.

Sufriyah

Followers of Ziyad ibn-al-Asfar. They believed that sinners are in fact polytheists.

24.

Ajaridah

Followers of Abd-al-Karim ibn-Ajrad. They believed that a child should be called to Islam after it has attained maturity. Also they believed booty of war to be unlawful till the owner is killed.

25.

Khazimiyah

They believe Allah loves men of all faiths even if one has been disbeliever most of his life.

26.

Shuaibiyah / Hujjatiyah

They believe that what Allah desires does happen no matter what and what does not happen it means Allah desires it not.

27.

Khalafiyah

Followers of Khalaf. They do not believe in fighting except under the leadership of an Imam.

28.

Ma'lumiyah / Majhuliyah

They believed that whoever did not recognize Allah by all His names was ignorant of Him and anyone ignorant of Him was a disbeliever.

29.

Saltiyah

Followers of Salt ibn-Uthman. They believed in the conversion of adults only and if father has converted to Islam children were considered disbeliever till they reach maturity.

30.

Hamziyah

Followers of Hamza ibn-Akrak. They believe that children of polythiests are condemned to heck.

31.

Tha'libiyah

Followers of Tha'labah ibn-Mashkan. They believe that parents remain guardian over their children of any age until children make it clear to parents that they are turning away from truth.

32.

Ma'badiyah

They did not believe in taking or giving alms from or to slaves.

33.

Akhnasiyah

They do not believe in waging a war except in defense or when the opponent is known personally.

34.

Shaibaniyah / Mashbiyah

Followers of Shaiban ibn-Salamah al-Khariji. They believe Allah resembles His creatures.

35.

Rashidiyah

They believe that land watered by springs, canals or flowing rivers should pay half the Zakat (Tithe), while land watered by rain only should pay the full Zakat.

36.

Mukarramiyah / Tehmiyah

Followers of abu-Mukarram. They believe that ignorance constitutes as disbelief. Also that Allah enmity or friendship depends upon the state of a persons belief at his death.

37.

Ibadiyah / Af'aliyah

Consider Abdullah ibn-Ibad as their Imam. They believe in doing good deeds without the intention of pleasing Allah.

38.

Hafsiyah

Consider Hafs ibn-abi-l-Mikdam as their Imam. They believe that only knowing Allah frees one from polytheism

39.

Harithiya

Followers of Harith ibn-Mazid al-Ibadi. They believe that the ability precedes the deeds.

40.

Ashab Ta'ah

They believe that Allah can send a prophet without giving him any sign to prove his prophecy.

41.

Shabibiyah / Salihiyah

Followers of Shabib ibn-Yazid al-Shaibani. They believe in the Imamate of a woman named Ghazalah.

42.

Wasiliyah

Followers of Wasil ibn-'Ata al-Ghazza. They believe that those who commit major sins will be punished in heck but still remain believers.

43.

'Amriyah

Followers of 'Amr ibn-Ubaid ibn-Bab. They reject the legal testimony of people from supporters of either side of the battle of Camel.

44.

Hudhailiyah / Faniya

Followers of abu-al-Hudhail Muhammad ibn-al-Hudhail. They believe that both heck and Paradise will perish and that preordination of Allah can cease, at which time Allah will no longer be omnipotent.

45.

Nazzamiyah

Followers of abu-Ishaq Ibrahim ibn-Saiyar. They do not believe in the miraculous nature of the Holy Quran nor do they believe the miracles of Holy Prophet (pbuh) like splitting the moon.

46.

Mu'ammariyah

They Believe that Allah neither creates life nor death but it is an act of the nature of living body.

47.

Bashriyah

Followers of Bashr ibn-al-Mu'tamir. They believe that Allah may forgive a man his sins and may change His mind about this forgiveness and punish him if he is disobedient again.

48.

Hishamiyah

Followers of Hisham ibn-'Amr al-Futi. They believe that if a Muslim community come to consensus it need an Imam and if it rebels and kills its Imam, no one should be chosen an Imam during a rebellion.

49.

Murdariyah

Followers of Isa ibn-Sabih. They believe that staying in close communication with the Sultan (ruler) makes one unbeliever.

50.

Ja'friyah

Followers of Ja'far ibn-Harb and Ja'far ibn-Mubashshir. They believe that drinking raw wine is not punishable and that punishment of heck could be inferred by a mental process.

51.

Iskafiyah

Followers of Muhammad ibn-Abdallah al-Iskafi. They believe that Allah has power to oppress children and madmen but not those who have their full senses.

52.

Thamamiyah

Followers of Thamamah ibn-Ashras al-Numairi. They believe that he whom Allah does not compel to know Him, is not compelled to know and is classed with animals who are not responsible.

53.

Jahiziayh

Followers of 'Amr ibn-Bahr al-Jahiz. They believe that Allah is able to create a thing but unable to annihilate it.

54.

Shahhamiyah / Sifatiyah

Followers of abu-Yaqub al-Shahham. They everything determined is determined by two determiners, one the Creator and the other acquirer.

55.

Khaiyatiyah / Makhluqiyah

Followers of abu-al-Husain al-Khaiyat. They believe that everything non-existant is a body before it appears, like man before it is born is a body in non-existance. Also that every attribute becomes existant when it makes its appearance.

56.

Ka'biyah

Followers of abu-Qasim Abdullah ibn-Ahmad ibn-Mahmud al-Banahi known as al-Ka'bi. They believe that Allah does not see Himself nor anyone else except in the sense that He knows Himself and others.

57.

Jubbaiyah

Followers of abu-'Ali al-Jubbai. They believe that Allah obeys His servants when He fulfill their wish

58.

Bahshamiyah

Followers of abu-Hashim. They believe that one who desires to do a bad deed, though may not do it, commits infidelity and deserves punishment.

59.

Ibriyah.

They believe that Holy Prophet (pbuh) was a wise man but not a prophet.

60.

Muhkamiyah

They believe that God has no control over His creations.

61.

Qabariyya

They do not believe in the punishment of grave.

62.

Hujjatiya

They do not believe in the punishment for deeds on the grounds that because everything is determined so whatever one does s/he is not responsible for it.

63.

Fikriyya

They believe that doing Dhikr and Fikr (Remembering and thinking about Allah) is better than worship.

64.

'Aliviyah / Ajariyah

They believe that Hadhrat Ali share prophethood with Muhammad (pbuh).

65.

Tanasikhiya

They believe in the re-incarnation of soul.

66.

Raji'yah

They believe that Hadhrat Ali ibn-abi-Talib will return to this world.

67.

Ahadiyah

They believe in the Fardh (obligations) in faith but deny the sunnah.

68.

Radeediyah

They believe that this world will live forever.

69.

Satbiriyah

They do not believe in the acceptance of repentance.

70.

Lafziyah

They believe that Quran is not the word of God but only its meaning and essence is the word of God. Words of Quran are just the words of narrator.

71.

Ashariyah

The believe that Qiyas (taking a guess) is wrong and amounts to disbelief.

72.

Bada'iyah

They believe that obedience to Ameer is obligatory no matter what he commands.

by Seraphim Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:43 am

Dear YSK:

Once again I have quoted from your post above, it is as follows;

My duty to Allah (swt) is to worship Him and be grateful for all the bounties He has given me which, were I to try and count, I could never even compute the number. My duty to Allah (swt - or God - which would you prefer I use?) is to fear Him, love Him, ask for His guidance, mercy and forgiveness (5 times every day), to be dutiful to my parents and kind to them in their old age, to do good deeds, to give charity, to be fair, to be humble, to be just and forgive others any wrong they may do to me. My duty to Allah (swt) is to not be vain, nor egotistical, nor a braggart, neither to be mean nor stingy with the bounty He provides, nor love the material things this temporary life offers more than Allah and the Hereafter. My duty is to speak truth, not say falsehoods against any person, believer or unbeliever. My duty to Allah does not include convincing people that they should be Muslim - we are not 'door knockers' or missionaries ("There is NO compulsion in religion" - Qur'an), the Almighty does not need us, we need Him.

Your words are peaceful ones, and you seem very sincere. Perhaps you could share your peaceful ideas with the Muslims referenced below. I have copied information from a website that is maintained by non-Christians, mostly from academia. You will see them listed below. If you like, you can examine this historical information more intently at the following site.

http://www.historyofjihad.org/egypt.html

The History of Jihad site is brought to you by a panel of contributors. This site is co-ordinated by Robin MacArthur with Mahomet Mostapha and Naim al Khoury, New Jersey.

Other contributors to this site include professors and members of the faculty from the Universities of Stanford and Michigan (Ann Arbor), Kansas State University, Ohio State University, and the London School of Economics. We strongly suggest that this site be recommended as additional reading for students of Islamic History.
We also invite students and professors of this subject to mirror this site on your University or private servers, link it up from your sites, to print it as a non-profit publication and refer it to students, journalists, cinematographers, military personnel, members of both houses of Congress, and Parliamentarians from your countries, members of the judiciary and most importantly to officers of the FBI, CIA, Scotland Yard, MI5, Mossad, FSB (Russian Secret Police) Direction Generale de la Securite Exterieure (DGSE) and to all other stakeholders in the subjects of the Islam and the Jihad.

________________________

How the Jihadis vandalized this ancient land and wiped out Christianity as well as the ancient culture of Egypt - leaving only the massive Pyramids and the Sphinx as mute witness to the glory of Egypt before it was vandalized by the Arab Muslims

Chronological Jihads

The Jihad against Arabs (622 to 634)

The Jihad against Zoroastrian Persians of Iran, Baluchistan and Afghanistan (634 to 651)

The Jihad against the Byzantine Christians (634 to 1453)

The Jihad against Christian Coptic Egyptians (640 to 655)

The Jihad against Christian Coptic Nubians - modern Sudanese (650)

The Jihad against pagan Berbers - North Africans (650 to 700)

The Jihad against Spaniards (711 to 730)

The Reconquista against Jihad in Spain (730 to 1492)

The Jihad against Franks - modern French (720 to 732)

The Jihad against Sicilians in Italy (812 to 940)

The Jihad against Chinese (751)

The Jihad against Turks (651 to 751)

The Jihad against Armenians and Georgians (1071 to 1920)

The Crusade against Jihad (1096 - 1291 ongoing)

The Jihad against Mongols (1260 to 1300)

The Jihad against Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (638 to 1857)

The Jihad against Indonesians and Malays (1450 to 1500)

The Jihad against Poland (1444 to 1699)

The Jihad against Rumania (1350 to 1699)

The Jihad against Russia (1500 to 1853)

The Jihad against Bulgaria (1350 to 1843)

The Jihad against Serbs, Croats and Albanians (1334 to 1920)

The Jihad against Greeks (1450 to 1853)

The Jihad against Albania (1332 - 1853)

The Jihad against Croatia (1389 to 1843)

The Jihad against Hungarians (1500 to 1683)

The Jihad against Austrians (1683)

Jihad in the Modern Age (20th and 21st Centuries)

The Jihad against Israelis (1948 - 2004 ongoing)

The Jihad against Americans (9/11/2001)

The Jihad against the British (1947 onwards)

The Jihad against Denmark (2005 cartoon controversy onwards)

The Jihad against the Filipinos in Mindanao(1970 onwards)

The Jihad against Indonesian Christians in Malaku and East Timor (1970 onwards)

The Jihad against Russians (1995 onwards)

The Jihad against Dutch and Belgians (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Norwegians and Swedes (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Thais (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Nigerians (1965 onwards)

The Jihad against Canadians (2001 onwards)

The Jihad against Latin America (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Australia (2002 onwards)

The Global Jihad today (2001 - ongoing)

The War on Terror against Jihad today (2001- ongoing)

The Vision for the post-Islamic (and post-religious) world

by Seraphim Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:25 am

Dear YSK:

I do agree with you that all human beings have a tendency to violence. History is marked with countless wars and atrocities perpetuated by virtually every group at one time or another. I also agree that the problem with violence is one found in each human soul.

At one time in my own life, I have been a "Flowerchild of the 60's" who advocated the end of war. I believed in peace and love.

Later I became a Right Wing Conservative Hawk and remained so for many years.

In my middle age years, I moderated considerably, and began to embrace Christian Principles.

As a moderate Christian, I could still be "stirred up" with talk of retribution, and Justice and war to defend principles that I believed in.

I ultimately came to a place where I began to question my own beliefs. I simply couldn't understand why so many Christians acted like such idiots (me included)

In my "Golden Years" (That sounds so nice, but it still describes an Old Fart!)

I have left behind Western Christian Christianity altogether and have become a part of The Ancient, Historical, Original Christian Church. The one founded before Constantine, before Rome, before Augustine, before all of the horrors of the Middle Ages, Crusades, Inquisition, etc.etc.

Eastern Orthodoxy represents the second largest group of Christians on the planet (after the Roman Catholics)

The human problem exists in my Church, just like it does everywhere else! This is because it is populated by Human Beings who all have that same problem in their souls.

The Eastern Orthodox Church sees herself as a hospital for the souls of men. Those in the Church, the ones who take things seriously and to heart, will follow the prescriptions given by the Church for their healing. Those who don't, I continue to pray for.

I pray for the Muslims too! (The people, not the Ideology)

As an older man, I am absolutely amazed that "any" human being can come to a place of Peace and Love. Love for God and Love for his fellow man. Life for everyone is like a giant war zone filled with mines and obstacles and people with different paths that they are only to happy to present to you.

I have found what I have been looking for all of my life. This Pearl of Great Price has helped me to understand the depth of sin that resides in my own soul. It has filled me with Love. It has also given me new convictions, not violent ones, but very strong ones.

I wish everyone could find happiness and fulfillment, but sadly, this is not reality! We live in very difficult times and people cannot help but be affected by them. All people act or react in accordance with the peace they possess or lack in their own souls.

I try to live by a Scriptural Mandate that states plainly; Be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Being wise to me means to study and research every movement, or ideology, or sales pitch, or law, or idea that affects me and my family and my Church and humanity in general. I do not look at these things filled with passion and judgement, but with dis-passion and concern for my fellowman.

I will no longer share information about what I know about Islam on this thread. I am also asking myself a question.....

What is it about the investment in the IQD that draws so many people on the fringe to these sites?

Best of Luck,
Seraphim

by 7freemom Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:30 pm

Thanks, Seraphim, for the wealth of info on muslim religion, and something of your personal faith journey and perspective.

From God Calling edited by A.J. Russell for today, "November 20 Mysteries .... Your Hope is in the Lord... Me. Know... future [holds] more of Me .... glad... full of Joy. .... Do not try to find answers to the mysteries of the world. Learn to know Me more... in that Knowledge you will have all the answers you need here, and when you see Me Face to Face, in that purely Spiritual world, you will find no need to ask. There again all your answers will be in Me.... the answer in time to all man's questions about My Father and His Laws... All you need to know about God you know in Me. If a man knows Me not, all your explanations will fall on an unresponsive heart."

My worn copy of this book edited by A.J. Russell on behalf of Two Listeners electing to remain anonymous, published in 1945 as part of twenty-second printing by DODD, MEAD AND COMPANY, Inc. in U.S.A.

This precious volume has been part of my daily inspiration and instruction for many years of practicing His Presence within me, to His Honor and Glory. At this time in my life and His-Story, " answers to the mysteries of the world" seem to be finding me in many unique ways (including here) and being revealed in His time. Sometimes what He's giving me can be somewhat overwhelming, as much is required to whom much is given. However He promises to guide, direct, empower and provide for ALL He calls me to Be and do; so very thankful for His indwelling Holy Spirit manifesting His Love, Peace, Joy, Forgiveness, as i walk in obedience....

Blessings to All here as you seek Truth and LIVE in it ... Truth sets you Free!

We are more than conquerors through Him Who Loves us...

Perfect Love casts out all fear... Learning who and Whose I am and choosing Him as Supreme relationship, pearl of great price, in my Life. In His Love, 7freemom

by Alchemist Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:41 pm

Though my study was a little different, following this paragraph is brief information from a brief search. Then there's 'genus' which I am not certain about its root... Since genius comes from the Latin meaning a guardian spirit, jinn likely is related. I find the Islamic meaning very interesting as it is opposite than that of the root's Western descendant, given the etymology is correct.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=genius
"genius" - late 14c., "tutelary god (classical or pagan)," from L. genius "guardian deity or spirit which watches over each person from birth; spirit, incarnation, wit, talent;" also "prophetic skill," originally "generative power," from root of gignere "beget, produce" (see kin), from PIE base *gen-"produce." Sense of "characteristic disposition" is from 1580s. Meaning "person of natural intelligence or talent" and that of "natural ability" are first recorded 1640s.

Wiki - "genie"
Etymology From French génie (“genius", "genie”) (used to translate Arabic جِنّ (jinn) based on similarity of sound and sense) from Latin genius (“household guardian spirit”)...

yoursoulknows wrote:
Alchemist wrote:YSK,

"have you heard of Jinn? "The fuel of the fire will be men and jinn" I've learned some things about them.."

Yes I have. Though the full extent of Islamic tradition is lost to me. I did a word study somewhere about a word related to the djin, this language may be related to the root of the word genius. The heart should always guide the intellect.

Alchemist,

This is all I have learned.

Jinn comes from the word 'genie' - not genius. Jinn were created a long time before Man, and Shaytaan (Satan) is a jinn. He was the favorite of God from among the jinn, and resided in the heavens, with the angels and Allah (swt). Jinn were given 'free will' - as was man - but apparently are not nearly as intelligent as man. We are told the Angels can only follow Gods commands, and do not have free will... the reason why Satan had the 'choice' of whether or not to prostrate before Adam (pbuh) was because he is a jinn.

After Satan was cast out he tempted Adam (pbuh) and Eve in the garden (in Qur'an it says both were tempted at the same time, and not that Eve was tempted first and that she tempted Adam pbuh) and all were cast out till the Day of Reckoning. Jinn live in this world alongside us, in an alternate dimension, we cannot see them. They like to reside in dirty places (washrooms for example), empty and abandoned houses, graveyards. It is forbidden for mankind to communicate with the jinn and vice versa. Some disobey, from both man and jinn. That is what I've learned, cheers, YSK

by Alchemist Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:52 pm

Etymology - genus
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=genus

Genus (pl. genera), 1550s as a term of logic, "kind or class of things" (biological sense dates from c.1600), from L. genus (gen. generis) "race, stock, kind; family, birth, descent, origin," cognate with Gk. genos "race, kind," and gonos "birth, offspring, stock," from PIE base *gen-/*gon-/*gn-"produce, beget, be born" (cf. Skt. janati "begets, bears," janah "race," janman-"birth, origin," jatah "born;" Avestan zizanenti "they bear;" Gk. gignesthai "to become, happen;" L. gignere "to beget," gnasci "to be born," genius "procreative divinity, inborn tutelary spirit, innate quality," ingenium "inborn character," germen "shoot, bud, embryo, germ;" Lith. gentis "kinsmen;" Goth. kuni "race;" O.E. cennan "beget, create;" O.H.G. kind "child;" O.Ir. ro-genar "I was born;" Welsh geni "to be born;" Armenian chanim "I bear, I am born").

by Alchemist Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:26 pm

If there is a lesson from the word study, I suppose it could include:
- words change in meaning based on culture
- words have a heritage
- understanding the connections and meanings can be enriching
- common themes may reveal themselves
- understanding is multifold and layered
- certain highly charged words can act as triggers, but do we know their origen?

by H2OMAN Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:59 pm

It has been said, Talent does what it can..genius does what it must...

by Herb Lady Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:22 am

This has all been very interesting. A lot to take in.

But I have learned this - the very very old beliefs are "nature based." All religious holidays are pagan. The true meaning of pagan means - from the woods. The true meaning of wiccan - means wise woman. It has been taught that to condemn another's beliefs is to condemn your own. The number one rule - "harm none." And there has never been a war started in the name of wicca.

by Azure Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:36 am

I thought this might be of interest more information in the stew pot,

This topic has puzzled numerous expositors. How does Islam fit into the picture of global conflict? Is this a political, religious, or religio-political conflict? What is its origin and what are its goals? How does it impact on ecumenism and on the doctrine of salvation in Christ? Find out in this informative video. A clear line is drawn through history, showing that the reality is more startling than the theory.

http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/129/216-the-islamic-connection/

by Alchemist Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:28 am

Some themes are universal, we are stardust.
We are of the earth, yet we are spirit.
All things emanate from source.

Herb Lady wrote:This has all been very interesting. A lot to take in.

But I have learned this - the very very old beliefs are "nature based." All religious holidays are pagan. The true meaning of pagan means - from the woods. The true meaning of wiccan - means wise woman. It has been taught that to condemn another's beliefs is to condemn your own. The number one rule - "harm none." And there has never been a war started in the name of wicca.

by Alchemist Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:29 am

I like that!

H2OMAN wrote:It has been said, Talent does what it can..genius does what it must...

by Alchemist Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:32 pm

No matter how much we do not want to consider it, I believe that the impact of ancient teachings have permeated all subsequent thought, perhaps serving as the foundation of what was to come, as glimpses of insight into that which is unseable. Before the singularity, the big bang theory, what was there? 0 is represented as infinite potential. The concept of zero point energy, that ether that lies beyond matter yet exists along side it, has been proven sufficiently to be accepted in scientific halls, and I have given examples of this. The concept of breath, spirit, word going forth in the act of creation, the Logos, and the ordering of the universe are central themes, universal themes. Even today, quantum or particle physics look at the construction of matter, which can exist as particles, waves or probability. Indeed, matter is thought. Behind everything that exists, is a source of creation, the invisible God, the Self Sufficient One. How can any words decare His Glory? The heavens declare His glory and handiwork. Though there be different bodies, the lesser reflect the light of the greater, and behind that, Source. How can any words describe His Majesty? Selah.

This is interesting...

"While the monad is the symbol of wisdom, the duad is the symbol of ignorance, for in it exists the sense of separateness--which sense is the beginning of ignorance. The duad, however, is also the mother of wisdom, for ignorance--out of the nature of itself--invariably gives birth to wisdom. The Pythagoreans revered the monad but despised the duad, because it was the symbol of polarity. By the power of the duad the deep was created in contradistinction to the heavens. The deep mirrored the heavens and became the symbol of illusion, for the below was merely a reflection of the above. The below was called maya, the illusion, the sea, the Great Void, and to symbolize it the Magi of Persia carried mirrors. From the duad arose disputes and contentions, until by bringing the monad between the duad, equilibrium was reestablished by the Savior-God, who took upon Himself the form of a number and was crucified between two thieves for the sins of men."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta16.htm

by Alchemist Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:48 pm

Soul of the World-Coleman Barks read Rumi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlQaxwBIxE8

by Alchemist Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:29 pm

Embracing the Mystery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVW_Gcj6yw4

"Let that which you love be that which you do."

by Alchemist Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:38 pm

Another interesting study is that of The Fool. His number is 0, the number of infinite potential. He begins his journey upon the precipice, behind him are mountains, symbolizing the eternity from which he came and will spend his life trying to return to. He has an animal companion which acompanies him throughout his journey, sometimes nipping at him to keep him going, also serving as his guardian. He has a satchtel, in it is everything he needs, but he does not yet realize this. He is poised precariously, ready to step of the cliff, the point of no return. Will he learn to fly or fall?

The major arcana of the tarot were pictographs of an ancient book of wisdom. These were encoded in such a manner to preserve this ancient knowledge. (Yes, they had book burnings then.) Each of these pictographs encodes the information as archetypes. The Fool card contains all of the themes of the subsequent chapters, much like an introduction. At some point, circa 1400, all card games began to descend from these pictographs.

The use of the Tarot has been greatly misunderstood. In antiquity, this was a form of psychoanalysis, allowing the participant to reflect on the ancient wisdom encoded as archetypes of lifes journey. So powerful are these archetypes, that the memes permeate our very consciousness. Carl Jung took note of the similarity of dream images of his patients and how similar they were. He came to explore these and the significance of these ancient memes. This transformed his work, culminating with what some consider his greatest work, "The Red Book." For years after his death, the climax of his work sat in a vault, concealed for his families concern of image.

by openmind Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:12 am

NAMASTE!

by H2OMAN Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:42 am

Carl Jung's THE RED BOOK....Thanks Alchemist..I'll read it. MAN and HIS SYMBOLS was my first intro to Jung.. Who is this RUMI I've seen you quote?

by yoursoulknows Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:51 am

Seraphim wrote:Dear YSK:
Just a few coments:

I have quoted from your post above where you correct me for referring to your sect as follows;

You say: "part of your "peaceful sect" - Islam a Sect? No, actually Islam is a recognized religion, actually one of the three major Abrahamic religions:

Apparently you are not aware of the numerous "sects" of Islam. Let me list them for you;

Dear Seraphim,

I am well aware that there are 73 "sects" within Islam. However you were either calling Islam, the religion, a 'sect' OR saying I was part of a 'sect' - I clarified so readers are informed that Islam is a major religion and not some "peaceful sect" as you put it. Also to clarify I am not a member of a 'sect' but a follower of one of the three major Abrahamic religions on our planet.

SECT - noun
1. a body of persons adhering to a particular religious faith; a religious denomination.
2. a group regarded as heretical or as deviating from a generally accepted religious tradition.
3. (in the sociology of religion) a Christian denomination characterized by insistence on strict qualifications for membership, as distinguished from the more inclusive groups called churches.
4. any group, party, or faction united by a specific doctrine or under a doctrinal leader.

Origin:
1300–50; Middle English secte < Latin secta something to follow, pathway, course of conduct, school of thought, probably noun derivative of sectārī to pursue, accompany, wait upon, frequentative of sequī to follow

The majority of Muslims (70%+) are Sunni, which is the main 'sect', if that is the terminology used for the Islamic denominations. I am a part of the Majority, a Sunni Muslim. It's good you could list them all here, to list all the Christian 'sects' would be impossible, given the massive number. I find it interesting that, for Islam, the divisions are called 'sects', and for Christianity they are called 'denominations'. The word 'sect' sounds 'cult like' to me, a rather 'negative' sounding word compared to 'denomination', don't you think? Interesting how powerful words can be... they create emotions, form opinions, sway beliefs... SECT certainly has meanings that DENOMINATION does not. To refer to any major religion as a SECT is quite condescending to that religion, imo, but I guess no one should be offended, obviously the two words mean the same thing.... as stated above in #1. YSK

List of Christian Sects (Denominations)

by yoursoulknows Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:53 am

You're right, I didn't know that, thanks. YSK

Alchemist wrote:Though my study was a little different, following this paragraph is brief information from a brief search. Then there's 'genus' which I am not certain about its root... Since genius comes from the Latin meaning a guardian spirit, jinn likely is related. I find the Islamic meaning very interesting as it is opposite than that of the root's Western descendant, given the etymology is correct.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=genius
"genius" - late 14c., "tutelary god (classical or pagan)," from L. genius "guardian deity or spirit which watches over each person from birth; spirit, incarnation, wit, talent;" also "prophetic skill," originally "generative power," from root of gignere "beget, produce" (see kin), from PIE base *gen-"produce." Sense of "characteristic disposition" is from 1580s. Meaning "person of natural intelligence or talent" and that of "natural ability" are first recorded 1640s.

Wiki - "genie"
Etymology From French génie (“genius", "genie”) (used to translate Arabic جِنّ (jinn) based on similarity of sound and sense) from Latin genius (“household guardian spirit”)...

yoursoulknows wrote:
Alchemist wrote:YSK,

"have you heard of Jinn? "The fuel of the fire will be men and jinn" I've learned some things about them.."

Yes I have. Though the full extent of Islamic tradition is lost to me. I did a word study somewhere about a word related to the djin, this language may be related to the root of the word genius. The heart should always guide the intellect.

Alchemist,

This is all I have learned.

Jinn comes from the word 'genie' - not genius. Jinn were created a long time before Man, and Shaytaan (Satan) is a jinn. He was the favorite of God from among the jinn, and resided in the heavens, with the angels and Allah (swt). Jinn were given 'free will' - as was man - but apparently are not nearly as intelligent as man. We are told the Angels can only follow Gods commands, and do not have free will... the reason why Satan had the 'choice' of whether or not to prostrate before Adam (pbuh) was because he is a jinn.

After Satan was cast out he tempted Adam (pbuh) and Eve in the garden (in Qur'an it says both were tempted at the same time, and not that Eve was tempted first and that she tempted Adam pbuh) and all were cast out till the Day of Reckoning. Jinn live in this world alongside us, in an alternate dimension, we cannot see them. They like to reside in dirty places (washrooms for example), empty and abandoned houses, graveyards. It is forbidden for mankind to communicate with the jinn and vice versa. Some disobey, from both man and jinn. That is what I've learned, cheers, YSK

by yoursoulknows Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:28 am

Dear Seraphim,

Thanks for sharing. I understand that you have deep convictions of what you know of Islam - and you're entitled to your opinions, of course. I do personally believe people can find happiness and fulfillment on this earth... that it comes from within, and from our relationship with the Almighty Creator of us all. I am a sincere human being, and I love all people, both my brothers and sisters in Islam and my brothers and sisters in humanity.

Why have so many fringe people been brought to the dinar? Good question - though I'm not sure, maybe it's to try our patience... Our patience with the dinar and each other? - lol - I sure hope it works out for all of us...

Do you trust PBS? If so this is a famous documentary by PBS on Islam. It is unbiased, presents the info with interviews of historians, religious scholars and more offering a rounded and balanced view - and it seems there is no agenda, just the facts. I found a great link about the 'making of the film' also, which was done by Americans.

I also will no longer post on the subject of Islam.
All the best to you and, post RV, may God guide us well.
May His peace and blessings be with you, cheers, YSK

PBS - Making of the Film

Islam - Empire of Faith - Part 1

Seraphim wrote:Dear YSK:

I do agree with you that all human beings have a tendency to violence. History is marked with countless wars and atrocities perpetuated by virtually every group at one time or another. I also agree that the problem with violence is one found in each human soul.

At one time in my own life, I have been a "Flowerchild of the 60's" who advocated the end of war. I believed in peace and love.

Later I became a Right Wing Conservative Hawk and remained so for many years.

In my middle age years, I moderated considerably, and began to embrace Christian Principles.

As a moderate Christian, I could still be "stirred up" with talk of retribution, and Justice and war to defend principles that I believed in.

I ultimately came to a place where I began to question my own beliefs. I simply couldn't understand why so many Christians acted like such idiots (me included)

In my "Golden Years" (That sounds so nice, but it still describes an Old Fart!)

I have left behind Western Christian Christianity altogether and have become a part of The Ancient, Historical, Original Christian Church. The one founded before Constantine, before Rome, before Augustine, before all of the horrors of the Middle Ages, Crusades, Inquisition, etc.etc.

Eastern Orthodoxy represents the second largest group of Christians on the planet (after the Roman Catholics)

The human problem exists in my Church, just like it does everywhere else! This is because it is populated by Human Beings who all have that same problem in their souls.

The Eastern Orthodox Church sees herself as a hospital for the souls of men. Those in the Church, the ones who take things seriously and to heart, will follow the prescriptions given by the Church for their healing. Those who don't, I continue to pray for.

I pray for the Muslims too! (The people, not the Ideology)

As an older man, I am absolutely amazed that "any" human being can come to a place of Peace and Love. Love for God and Love for his fellow man. Life for everyone is like a giant war zone filled with mines and obstacles and people with different paths that they are only to happy to present to you.

I have found what I have been looking for all of my life. This Pearl of Great Price has helped me to understand the depth of sin that resides in my own soul. It has filled me with Love. It has also given me new convictions, not violent ones, but very strong ones.

I wish everyone could find happiness and fulfillment, but sadly, this is not reality! We live in very difficult times and people cannot help but be affected by them. All people act or react in accordance with the peace they possess or lack in their own souls.

I try to live by a Scriptural Mandate that states plainly; Be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Being wise to me means to study and research every movement, or ideology, or sales pitch, or law, or idea that affects me and my family and my Church and humanity in general. I do not look at these things filled with passion and judgement, but with dis-passion and concern for my fellowman.

I will no longer share information about what I know about Islam on this thread. I am also asking myself a question.....

What is it about the investment in the IQD that draws so many people on the fringe to these sites?

Best of Luck,
Seraphim

by Alchemist Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:13 am

Epiphinea!

"I find it interesting that, for Islam, the divisions are called 'sects', and for Christianity they are called 'denominations'. The word 'sect' sounds 'cult like' to me, a rather 'negative' sounding word compared to 'denomination', don't you think? Interesting how powerful words can be... they create emotions, form opinions, sway beliefs..."

by Alchemist Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:37 am

If we consider the earth, terra firma, the line most obvious for its meaning is the horizon. Wind, bird, sky, spirit, the above. When we think of this, it is the above coming down unto us. This makes most sense as a verticle line.

I realize, some don't don't get my sayings. This thread is about tolerance. This comes from understanding. Many things are related. Many things we think belong just to us for symbols are really much much older. Please don't be cross with me.

So, if the union of the material and spiritual worlds were to be drawn as a two dimensional pictograph, it would be two intersecting lines at right angles to each other. This also creates a point at the intersection which is the monad or ⊙. From it, the four elements of creation. I wonder if the number of the cross would be 42? (referencing another thread) †.......†.......†