Where is official document stating section 32 of Iraq’s currency laws it is illegal to export their currency outside of Iraq

Since you WANNA see the official Iraq document so bad, I found the link for you.

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/cpa-iraq/regulations/20040306_CPAORD_56_Central_Bank_Law_with_Annex.pdf

ssmith wrote:Since you WANNA see the official Iraq document so bad, I found the link for you.

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/cpa-iraq/regulations/20040306_CPAORD_56_Central_Bank_Law_with_Annex.pdf

GREAT FIND, GOOD WORK!

NO IT DOESN'T BUT I DID NOTICE THAT YOU HAVE TO BASICALLY HAVE PERMISSION FROM THE CBI TO SELL IT. (MAINLY BANKS) AND RESERVES ARE ANOTHER WHOLE BALL GAME, IT LOOKS LIKE BY CBI LAW THE SELLER HAS TO HAVE ENOUGH CASH TO BACK UP THE RESERVES THE ARE SELLING. WITH ALL THE PUMPING THE POOROOS DO I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT WAS THE CASE WITH ALL THESE CURRENCY DEALERS.

I SAW THE SAME SSMITH BUT I WAS READING IT AS A COMMON HOPIUM FILLED DINARIAN WOULD AND THEN TRIED TO INTERPRET LOL.

A couple things no one has mentioned.. Our banks used to sell the dinar, until it became a speculative investment.

Travelex STILL sells the dinar in at least one country:  http://www.travelex.com.om/

There will be no convincing some people and the "yeah buts" will continue as they twist it to mean what they want to hear.

Holding the currency outside the country is not illegal and the legal aspect does not deal with criminal intent but rather Iraq's legal obligations concerning Dinar that is held contrary to the specific conditions clearly spelled out. Whether or not it is legal or illegal to take Dinar out of the country is totally beside the point, you already have it and it's obviously not illegal to have it in your passion, that's not the point! What is important is Iraq's legal obligations to Dinar held outside the country and they are quite clear about that! They make it very clear that Dinar is to be for use ONLY inside Iraq except where otherwise approved and they make it quite clear they have no legal obligations concerning Dinar held outside their clearly stated rules, THAT is the legal issue not criminal intent.

More guru folklore.  It is not illegal for the CBI to sell it's currency outside Iraq.  Since were on the subject, and a document was posted signed by Bremer, it was Bremer himself who set up the initial sale of dinar for dollars through the Dubai financial system!

muskie wrote:More guru folklore.  It is not illegal for the CBI to sell it's currency outside Iraq.  Since were on the subject, and a document was posted signed by Bremer, it was Bremer himself who set up the initial sale of dinar for dollars through the Dubai financial system!

Here you go with the guru folklore trying to create a diversion again, you are addressing the wrong issue! No one is saying it's illegal to export Dinar and selling/owning Dinar is clearly not a criminal offense. The term "Legal" here is not dealing with criminal actions but rather it's about Iraq's legal obligations to Dinar that left the country without authorization. The bottom line is those clearly stated rules make it clear that Iraq has no legal obligation to honor Dinar held by speculators outside the country, it certainly doesn't forbid from from doing so if they choose to but they are not legally bound by international law to honor these Dinar if they choose not to.

Presidential Order 13303: Allows US Citizens to invest in the New Iraq . Under this Order and the Coalition Provisional Government Order 39, a US citizen has the same rights to investments as an Iraqi citizen

Executive Order

Executive Order Protecting the Development Fund for Iraq and Certain Other Property in Which Iraq Has An Interest

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, as amended (50 U.S.C. 1701 et seq.) (IEEPA), the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1601 et seq.), section 5 of the United Nations Participation Act, as amended (22 U.S.C. 287c) (UNPA), and section 301 of title 3, United States Code,

I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, find that the threat of attachment or other judicial process against the Development Fund for Iraq, Iraqi petroleum and petroleum products, and interests therein, and proceeds, obligations, or any financial instruments of any nature whatsoever arising from or related to the sale or marketing thereof, and interests therein, obstructs the orderly reconstruction of Iraq, the restoration and maintenance of peace and security in the country, and the development of political, administrative, and economic institutions in Iraq. This situation constitutes an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States and I hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that threat.

I hereby order:

Section 1. Unless licensed or otherwise authorized pursuant to this order, any attachment, judgment, decree, lien, execution, garnishment, or other judicial process is prohibited, and shall be deemed null and void, with respect to the following:

(a) the Development Fund for Iraq, and

(b) all Iraqi petroleum and petroleum products, and interests therein, and proceeds, obligations, or any financial instruments of any nature whatsoever arising from or related to the sale or marketing thereof, and interests therein, in which any foreign country or a national thereof has any interest, that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of United States persons.

Sec. 2. (a) As of the effective date of this order, Executive Order 12722 of August 2, 1990, Executive Order 12724 of August 9, 1990, and Executive Order 13290 of March 20, 2003, shall not apply to the property and interests in property described in section 1 of this order.

(b) Nothing in this order is intended to affect the continued effectiveness of any rules, regulations, orders, licenses or other forms of administrative action issued, taken, or continued in effect heretofore or hereafter under Executive Orders 12722, 12724, or 13290, or under the authority of IEEPA or the UNPA, except as hereafter terminated, modified, or suspended by the issuing Federal agency and except as provided in section 2(a) of this order.

Sec. 3. For the purposes of this order:

(a) The term "person" means an individual or entity;

(b) The term "entity" means a partnership, association, trust, joint venture, corporation, group, subgroup, or other organization;

(c) The term "United States person" means any United States citizen, permanent resident alien, entity organized under the laws of the United States or any juris-diction within the United States (including foreign branches), or any person in the United States;

(d) The term "Iraqi petroleum and petroleum products" means any petroleum, petroleum products, or natural gas originating in Iraq, including any Iraqi-origin oil inventories, wherever located; and

(e) The term "Development Fund for Iraq" means the fund established on or about May 22, 2003, on the books of the Central Bank of Iraq, by the Administrator of the Coalition Provisional Authority responsible for the temporary governance of Iraq and all accounts held for the fund or for the Central Bank of Iraq in the name of the fund.

Sec. 4. (a) The Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense, is hereby authorized to take such actions, including the promulga-tion of rules and regulations, and to employ all powers granted to the President by IEEPA and the UNPA as may be necessary to carry out the purposes of this order. The Secretary of the Treasury may redelegate any of these functions to other officers and agencies of the United States Government. All agencies of the United States Government are hereby directed to take all appropriate measures within their statutory authority to carry out the provisions of this order.

(b) Nothing contained in this order shall relieve a person from any requirement to obtain a license or other authorization in compliance with applicable laws and regulations.

Sec. 5. This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right, benefit, or privilege, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by a party against the United States, its departments, agencies, entities, officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

Sec. 6. This order shall be transmitted to the Congress and published in the Federal Register.

GEORGE W. BUSH
THE WHITE HOUSE,
May 22, 2003.

COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY ORDER NUMBER 39
FOREIGN INVESTMENT

Pursuant to my authority as Administrator of the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) and the laws and usages of war, and consistent with relevant U.N. Security Council resolutions, including Resolution 1483 (2003),

Having worked closely with the Governing Council to ensure that economic change occurs in a manner acceptable to the people of Iraq,

Acknowledging the Governing Council’s desire to bring about significant change to the Iraqi economic system,

Determined to improve the conditions of life, technical skills, and opportunities for all Iraqis and to fight unemployment with its associated deleterious effect on public security,

Noting that facilitating foreign investment will help to develop infrastructure, foster the growth of Iraqi business, create jobs, raise capital, result in the introduction of new technology into Iraq and promote the transfer of knowledge and skills to Iraqis,

Recognizing the problems arising from Iraq’s legal framework regulating commercial activity and the way in which it was implemented by the former regime,

Recognizing the CPA’s obligation to provide for the effective administration of Iraq, to ensure the well being of the Iraqi people and to enable the social functions and normal transactions of every day life,

Acting in a manner consistent with the Report of the Secretary General to the Security Council of July 17, 2003, concerning the need for the development of Iraq and its transition from a non-transparent centrally planned economy to a market economy characterized by sustainable economic growth through the establishment of a dynamic private sector, and the need to enact institutional and legal reforms to give it effect,

Having coordinated with the international financial institutions, as referenced in paragraph 8(e) of the U.N. Security Council Resolution 1483,

In close consultation with and acting in coordination with the Governing Council, I hereby promulgate the following:

Section 1 
Definitions

1) “Administrator” means the Administrator of the Coalition Provisional Authority.

2) “Business entity” means any entity constituted or organized by law of any country, including, but not limited to, any corporation, partnership, joint venture, firm, enterprise, State-owned enterprise, organization, or other similar entity.

3) “Foreign investment” means investment by a foreign investor in any kind of asset in Iraq, including tangible and intangible property, and related property rights, shares and other forms of participation in a business entity, and intellectual property rights and technical expertise, except as limited by Section 8 of this Order.

4) “Foreign investor” means (a) a business entity constituted or organized under the law of a country other than Iraq; (b) a natural person who is (i) a national of a country other than Iraq, (ii) a stateless person not residing permanently in Iraq, or (iii) a national of Iraq residing permanently outside of Iraq; or (c) a business entity constituted or organized by any of the above under the law of Iraq; that is making or has made an investment in Iraq.

5) “Iraqi investor” means (a) a business entity constituted or organized under the law of Iraq other than by a foreign investor; or a natural person who is (i) a national of Iraq residing permanently in Iraq, or (ii) a stateless person residing permanently in Iraq; that is making or has made an investment in Iraq.

Section 2 
Purposes

This Order promotes and safeguards the general welfare and interests of the Iraqi people by promoting foreign investment through the protection of the rights and property of foreign investors in Iraq and the regulation through transparent processes of matters relating to foreign investment in Iraq. This Order specifies the terms and procedures for making foreign investments and is intended to attract new foreign investment to Iraq.

Section 3 
Relation to Existing Iraqi Law

1) This Order replaces all existing foreign investment law.

2) This Order is subject to revision by the Administrator, or to adoption or replacement by an internationally recognized, representative government established by the people of Iraq.

3) Future Orders or other guidance will be issued concerning various sectors of the economy.

Section 4 
Treatment of Foreign Investors

1) A foreign investor shall be entitled to make foreign investments in Iraq on terms no less favorable than those applicable to an Iraqi investor, unless otherwise provided herein.

2) The amount of foreign participation in newly formed or existing business entities in Iraq shall not be limited, unless otherwise expressly provided herein.

Section 5 
Trade Offices & Branches

A foreign investor may open trade representation offices and branches in Iraq; such offices and branches shall be registered with the Iraqi Registrar of Companies.

Section 6 
Areas of Foreign Investment

1) Foreign investment may take place with respect to all economic sectors in Iraq, except that foreign direct and indirect ownership of the natural resources sector involving primary extraction and initial processing remains prohibited. In addition, this Order does not apply to banks and insurance companies.

2) Foreign investment may take place in all parts of Iraq.

3) A foreign investor shall be prohibited from engaging in retail sales, unless at least 30 days prior to engaging in such retail sales such foreign investor deposits $100,000 in a non-interest-bearing account in a properly licensed Iraqi bank located in Iraq pursuant to procedures to be promulgated by the Ministry of Trade. Once a deposit is made pursuant to its procedures, the Ministry of Trade shall issue documentation to the foreign investor reflecting the authorization to engage in such retail sales. Such deposit must be maintained during the entire time that the foreign investor is engaged in retail sales; provided however, it shall be returned upon the request of the foreign investor at the completion of the retail sales activity.

Section 7 
Implementing Foreign Investment

1) A foreign investor may implement foreign investment using, among other things, freely convertible currencies or Iraqi legal tender, in the following forms:

a) establishing a wholly foreign-owned business entity in Iraq, including as a subsidiary of a foreign investor;

b) establishing a business entity jointly with an Iraqi investor;

c) establishing a branch office, as set forth in Section 5 herein; and

d) directly acquiring an investment.

2) A foreign investor shall be authorized to:

a) possess, use, and dispose of its investments;

b) manage or participate in managing a business entity;

c) transfer its rights and obligations to other persons in accordance with the law;

d) transfer abroad without delay all funds associated with its foreign investment, including:

i) shares or profits and dividends;

ii) proceeds from the sale or other disposition of its foreign investment or a portion thereof;

iii) interest, royalty payments, management fees, other fees and payments made under a contract; and

iv) other transfers approved by the Ministry of Trade;

e) exercise any other authority conferred upon it by law.

3) The Finance Minister and the Minister of Planning may jointly issue regulations to assist in the implementation of this Order.

Section 8 
Use of Real Property

1) After the date of this Order, unless otherwise permitted by law, a foreign investor or a business entity with any level of foreign investor participation may not under any circumstances purchase the rights of disposal and usufruct of private real property.

2) The duration of any license to use property shall be determined by the duration of operations related to the foreign investment. The initial term of a license shall not exceed 40 years, but may be renewed for further such periods. Licenses may be reviewed by the internationally recognized, representative government established by the people of Iraq upon its assumption of the responsibilities of the CPA.

3) If a business entity that is owned or controlled by a foreign investor or foreign investors is dissolved before the expiration of the license or lease, then the license or lease shall be terminated at the time of such dissolution.

Section 9 
Insurance

A foreign investor shall be permitted to obtain insurance coverage for all aspects of its operation from any foreign or Iraqi source deemed appropriate by the foreign investor.

Section 10
Dispute Settlement

Disputes between a foreign investor and an Iraqi investor pertaining to investment in Iraq, or between a foreign investor and an Iraqi legal or natural person, shall be resolved in accordance with the dispute resolution provisions contained in any applicable written agreement governing the relationship between the parties. The parties may elect in any agreement to utilize the arbitration mechanisms outlined in Iraqi law.

Section 11 
Dissolution of Entities

1) Within 14 days from the date of adopting a resolution or other instrument terminating the operations of a business entity that is owned or controlled by a foreign investor or foreign investors, the business entity with foreign investment shall submit the resolution or other instrument to the Iraqi Registrar of Companies.

2) Upon termination of operations and dissolution of the business entity with any level of foreign investment, any such foreign investor shall, consistent with Section 7 of this Order, have the right to transfer profits from the sale or liquidation to any foreign location, or as provided in a written agreement between the foreign investor and an Iraqi investor, provided that all amounts owed by such business entity to the government of Iraq and all Iraqi creditors have been paid in advance of the transfer.

Section 12
Tax Treatment

The Administrator may issue further orders to address the tax treatment of income derived from a foreign investment that is reinvested in a business entity in Iraq.

Section 13
Treatment of Investors

No legal text that impedes the operation of this Order shall hold and all investors, foreign and Iraqi, shall be treated equally under the law, except as otherwise specifically provided in this Order.

Section 14
International Agreements

Where an international agreement to which Iraq is a party provides for more favorable terms with respect to foreign investors undertaking investment activities in Iraq, the more favorable terms under the international agreement shall apply.

Section 15
Evasion

Violations of Sections 6(3) and 8(1) of this Order may serve as a basis for suspension or cancellation of the rights of a foreign investor in Iraq that arise under this Order.

Section 16
Entry into Force

This Order shall enter into force on the date of signature.

Paul Bremer, Administrator
Coalition Provisional Authority

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Exec Order 13303 doesn't have anything to do with people purchasing Dinar for investment purposes.

It's about protecting the legal rights of people doing business in Iraq.

Iraqi General Consulate in Detroit

16445 Twelve Mile Rd Southfield, MI 48076
(248) 423-1250

Just called them. They stated if and when it becomes a live international trading currency, it will be trade able world wide, call them yourself now
 [b]ssmith
VIP SECRET AGENT

--------------------------------------------------------
[/b]

Actually 13303 was attached, Coalition provisional government 39 is an interesting read, but you must read it entirely not just the top of the page.  Just saying.

YAWN ... you're arguments, on both sides, are old and tired. No one has anything new and you just keep circling the same old hill.

Every currency ever printed is intended for use and circulation inside the country which printed it. But that does not make it illegal to own the currency outside the country. In the case of Iran, N Korea, and in the past Iraq, (and maybe a couple others I am not aware of) it is illegal for Americans to posses them, but that is a USA law not the country's law.

MD13 wrote:Iraqi General Consulate in Detroit

16445 Twelve Mile Rd Southfield, MI 48076
(248) 423-1250

Just called them. They stated if and when it becomes a live international trading currency, it will be trade able world wide, call them yourself now
 [b]ssmith
VIP SECRET AGENT

--------------------------------------------------------
[/b]

I don't need to call them.

 Everyone knows that a live, international trading currency would be able to be traded internationally.  (Being "international" is a big clue)

So agree with you Kevin just a lot of hype over nothing.  When the currency become international than it will be traded no matter where you or at and that you purchased that currency by legal means.

lelam wrote:So agree with you Kevin just a lot of hype over nothing.  When the currency become international than it will be traded no matter where you or at and that you purchased that currency by legal means.

Unless.....  they redenominate and issue new currency.

Again I don't recall anyone saying different but when if ever is that going to happen? A better question would be "so what has that got to do with being profitable"?  It has to increase in value before being able to exchange it means anything and that's where the real problem lies. As has been discussed in another thread, Iraq has less than $100 billion dollars in reserves and there are TRILLIONS of Dinar in the hands of speculators, according to FBI records Sterling alone sold $600 million dollars worth so that's a half a Trillion from just that one company in the U.S. All the bantering back and forth about trade-ability doesn't mean squat until someone can explain just how in the dickens Iraq is supposed to pay at least hundreds of Billions to speculators when they have less than $100 Billion in reserves?

THAT is the burning question and until that is answered trade-ability is a meaningless issue.

I just saw this below...

Not sure why you would leave out #2. AND #4. of this law. How can you understand something without seeing the whole ? So here is the whole article 32 :

SECTION 7—CURRENCY

Article 32 Issuance of currency

1. The CBI shall have the exclusive right to issue banknotes and coins intended for
circulation in Iraq. Banknotes issued under this Article shall be a first charge on the assets of
the CBI. The CBI shall make appropriate arrangements for the issue of its banknotes and
coins as required for circulation in Iraq. Banknotes and coins issued by the CBI and intended for circulation in Iraq are not promissory notes, bills of exchange, or any other type of commercial document under the applicable commercial law, and the CBI is obligated to honor them only as provided for in this Law.

2. Only banknotes and coins issued by the CBI that have not been demonetized shall be legal
tender in Iraq.

3. The CBI may, by regulation, limit the amounts of banknotes and coins that must be
accepted as a legal tender in payment for an obligation and restrict the denominations of such
banknotes and coins in which payment may be made to specified amounts or a range of
amounts.

4. The CBI shall be responsible for the supply of Iraq’s banknotes and coins and shall endeavor to maintain the availability of an adequate number of banknotes and coins in all
regions at all times.

I believe someone is reading more into this than what is obvious. This is stating that Iraq prints it's currency for circulation in Iraq just like the USA prints it's currency for the USA. You don't see the USA printing "separate" currency for other countries.

This section (article 32) of the CBI Law sets the parameter's for currency issuance ! It's about regulating what is on the streets like when they pulled in the 50 dinar notes. It is also setting the regulations for counterfeit notes. IMO it says NOTHING about Iraq paying for currency outside their country. Here is the direct link to the CBI :

http://www.cbi.iq/documents/CBILAW-EN_f.pdf

dwm, for starters, do you think the UST would grant registrations for US currency traders if the currency was illegally smuggled or obtained? Especially in the case of Iraq.   Or if the issuing bank (CBI) had no intent to honor its obligations?  Do you not know anything about trade agreements or compliance?  Have you ever heard of the IMF Articles of Agreement?  How about the TIFA agreement signed by the USA and Iraq in 2013 that confirms bilateral financial cooperation?



https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/aa/

http://iraq.usembassy.gov/pr_march_6_2013b.html

ssmith wrote:
Unless.....  they redenominate and issue new currency.

Which is EXACTLY what they have been telling everyone they intend to do! If, and that's a damned big IF, they get their act together and get the economy on track and quite blowing up each other long enough they will re-denominate, it's one of Shabbi's stated goals. Most likely after the new currency is issued, if things ever settle down enough for this to happen which is in dire doubt, then they may be in a position for their currency to "go international" but right now NOBODY in the whole world wants the stuff except for stary-eyed speculators! Heck even the Iraqi's don't want Dinar and regularly trade it for Dollars at a sizable loss vs the official exchange rate. Iraq has tried desperately to close this gap between the official rate and the actual trading rate for a long time, recently even resorting to drastic measures such as severely curtailing the money auctions, etc. With such a situation as that it's quite obvious that if Iraq were to attempt to float the Dinar and "go international" with it in it's present state it would immediately nose-dive due to lack of demand. 

How can a currency become "internationally trade-able" when NO ONE wants it?

Oh but everyone will want it after they raise the value you say! And that puts us right back to square one and that huge elephant in the room that everyone wants to ignore -the 90 TRILLION Dinars they have to back with less than $100 Billion in reserves. Until that reserve/currency liability issue is dealt with there can be no significant increase in the value or the Dinar! Unfortunately for speculators re-denomination is the only way this huge money supply can be reduced by the over 99% that would be required. The only other way would be to increase the reserves to near the 90 Trillion Dollar level to match the money supply one to one and that's obviously impossible since 90 Trillion Dollars is well over twice the net worth of the entire planet!

muskie wrote:dwm, for starters, do you think the UST would grant registrations for US currency traders if the currency was illegally smuggled or obtained? Especially in the case of Iraq.   Or if the issuing bank (CBI) had no intent to honor its obligations?  Do you not know anything about trade agreements or compliance?  Have you ever heard of the IMF Articles of Agreement?  How about the TIFA agreement signed by the USA and Iraq in 2013 that confirms bilateral financial cooperation?



https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/aa/

http://iraq.usembassy.gov/pr_march_6_2013b.html

Did you actually read what I said? How many times do I have say that exporting/holding/selling Dinar is not illegal before you can get it through your thick head! I have said repeatedly it is not! The issue is not a criminal matter but rather a matter of Iraq's OBLIGATIONS to honor currency it never authorized to leave the country. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it was illegally exported by a criminal act, the issue is about what Iraq can be legally held to do with currency someone wants to re-introduce into the country, THAT'S the issue! Can they declare it void and not allow it back in? Most likely they can do just that and you want to know something else, they have done that very thing in the past!


As far as the rest of that, the trade agreements, etc NONE of that has anything to do with currency speculation, nothing at all!

MD13 wrote:Petro Dollar arrangements / Oil

And your point is????????

You guys who keep referring to international agreements in relation to the currency need to do some serious research about the difference between international investment and currency speculation, it's two entirely different things and is governed by completely different rules and laws.

Most countries welcome, and indeed encourage, foreign investment as means of improving their economy. Currency speculation OTOH is usually abhorred by central banks and normally avoided if at all possible, basically far from making speculation easy central bankers generally hate speculators!


There's some pretty good info here dealing with the pros and cons of speculation and it's effects on a country's economy. 

http://www.investorguide.com/article/11846/understanding-the-risks-of-currency-speculation-igu/


In some cases, such as Iraq early on, speculation can be a good thing for a country as long as the money is coming in, BUT, there is a dark side, a VERY dark side! If speculation becomes too widespread it makes it much harder to grow the economy in order to keep these speculators from becoming a burden on them if they allow conditions to occur that induce "cashing in" for profits and thus becoming a drain on their economy.


See any similarities there with the Iraqi situation?

MD13 wrote:Petro Dollar arrangements / Oil

Definition of Petrodollars

Petrodollars may be defined as the U.S. dollar earned front the sale of oil, or they may be simply defined as oil revenues denominated in U.S. dollars.

http://faculty.georgetown.edu/imo3/petrod/define.htm


If you are referring to the "contract rates" Tony, DC and the others have talked about.  That is utter nonsense.

muskie wrote:dwm, for starters, do you think the UST would grant registrations for US currency traders if the currency was illegally smuggled or obtained? Especially in the case of Iraq.   Or if the issuing bank (CBI) had no intent to honor its obligations?  Do you not know anything about trade agreements or compliance?  Have you ever heard of the IMF Articles of Agreement?  How about the TIFA agreement signed by the USA and Iraq in 2013 that confirms bilateral financial cooperation?



https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/aa/

http://iraq.usembassy.gov/pr_march_6_2013b.html

As usual you don't know what you're talking about. Do you think the registration process for an MSB contains a checkbox that says "I'm going to sell Iraqi currency to total suckers" on it? Look it up. Fincen Form 107.

Personally I think it's pointless to discuss whether it's illegal or not to export their currency since there's no reason there'd by a large appreciation of the IQD, but your argument is still ignorant of the facts.

I have no idea what he is talking about with the petro dollars but if he means that oil is going to somehow make up for that 89 Trillion, 900 Billion gap between the reserves and the money supply then you are most certainly correct -utter nonsense! These guys just seem to be unable to grasp the enormity of that money supply! They don't seem to understand that other countries in the region who have a much more valuable currency have reserves in line with their money supply, Kuwait for instance has a money supply in the low BILLIONS while Iraq's is well into the high TRILLIONS! Iraqi Dinar is worth a thousand times less than the Kuwaiti Dinar because Iraq has a thousand times more of them! Actually it's much worse than that but to make the point I used an even thousand.

MD13, What exactly is your point? Why are you so concerned about this? You keep trying to point out that it's not illegal to export/sell/own Dinar even though no one is arguing that it is.


You are correct and nothing you have posted shows it to be illegal to export/sell/own Dinar but nothing posted legally binds Iraq to accept them back either! Whether or not Iraq will accept them back into the country might be an issue but for that to be the case the Dinar would have to gain significant value first, harping on and on about these Iraqi government rules (that it would be up to the Iraqis to interpret) is putting the cart before the horse isn't it? First there must be a reason to take them back to Iraq before ANY of this even matters and that is going to be a mighty big hurdle to overcome!

Just my opinion and nothing more, I am basing this on NOTHING but opinion and I am not stating any of this as fact. Still it's something to THINK about,


Iraq must have known about all the Dinar leaving the country, I mean they would all have to have been brain dead not to know don't you think? We are talking about Trillions of Dinars, pallet loads (remember those ads, Tampa Dinar I think, could be wrong about the dealer) of fresh crisp bundled/banded bills of 25,000 Dinars EACH in sequential numbers. They HAD to have known where they were going, they simply could not have let that much brand new un-circulated currency leave the country without knowing it's intended destination. Sure some could have been mis-directed from it's real destination but TRILLIONS, I don't think so!

So what's my point? Well this means that the Iraqis had to be complicit in this or at the very least they looked the other way but why would they have done that without some reason? The fact is this was a goose laying golden eggs! They were as aware as anyone (obviously even more so!) of the Gold mine they had there, they were trading their nearly worthless paper for real hard cash, genuine U.S. Dollars and all they were selling was paper if it never came back! They got BILLIONS in hard cash (all the while laughing their butts off!) in return for what amounts to bundles of paper while outside the country, pure profit if it never comes back! Now my question would be WHY would they want to allow it to come back? They would have to return the Billions they took in even if it came back at the same exchange rate they sold it for, now WHY ON EARTH would they "RV" to $1 and buy it back for 1000 times what they sold it for????? Especially when that would require more money than exists in all the countries on the planet!

Obviously Iraq had to have been deeply involved, even if all they did was look the other way but with all that profit potential I think it perfectly logical to think they did far more than just stand by and allow it to leave. Rather they allowed all this Dinar to leave knowing full well it was destined for speculators on other shores but they kept their distance by not officially sanctioning this sale, indeed they steered clear of any mention of it! So we have to ask ourselves, did they ever intend to allow that currency back into the country?

Something else to consider, we often hear the gurus say that "if Iraq was going to LOP they would have done so by now" but would they? Why would they kill the goose laying the golden egg? The fact is that because of the gurus nonsense Dinar sales went up whenever they talked about "deleting the zeros" because people had been convinced by lying gurus that this was the event they were waiting on! Now Iraq is no longer exporting Dinars because the demand has dropped to the point where the supply pool in the country is pretty much self sustaining due to those giving up and selling to the dealers at less than Iraq was getting for it, a LOT less! So at this point IF Iraq gets it's affairs in order, and that remains to be seen, I predict (only a prediction, NOT stated as a fact!) that they will indeed do what they have been telling everyone and re-denominate/LOP sometime soon probably early next year or at least that's the time frame they last used -but then that's Iraq, so take that for what it's worth! Now the big question is will speculators be allowed to exchange their old currency for the new and at least recoup some of their money? Or will Iraq say "no we will not honor currency that left unauthorized" and maybe that's why they pretended to not even be aware of what was happening. They can probably do this if they so choose and why wouldn't they?

 THIS WAS UNAUTHORIZED SPECULATION DONE COMPLETELY OUTSIDE OF NORMAL (and internationally regulated!) CHANNELS AND IN FACT ONE OF THE VERY THINGS THAT EVEN MADE IT LEGAL FOR THE WELL KNOWN DEALERS TO SELL DINARS WAS THE EXPLICIT DENIAL THAT IT WAS BEING SOLD FOR SPECULATION OR INVESTMENT PURPOSES! THEY WERE NOT LICENSED TO BROKER INVESTMENTS OR CURRENCY SPECULATION AND THEREFOR SOLD DINARS FOR "COLLECTOR PURPOSES ONLY" AND OFFICIALLY DENIED IT WAS FOR ANY KIND OF INVESTMENT, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE GONE TO JAIL LONG AGO!



So considering that how can ANY of these foreign investment rules even apply? All this argument about investor protection when not only is currency speculation NOT foreign investment but in this case it was specifically sold as being NOT an investment! Add that to the language in those rules, that while not making export/sale/possession illegal, does not legally obligate Iraq to take a single note of this currency back but appears to give them several ways of avoiding doing that.



Will they take it back? Why would they?

Muskie, what is your hoped for profit here? In your mind, what is the highest amount that you allow yourself to hope that the dinar gets up to? 900:1? 500:1? A penny? 10 cents? A dollar?

BONDLADY?????? Are you serious?? LMAO!!!!!!! Why not Okie Oilman?????? LOL!

First I would NEVER ask any guru anything! Those lying $#!*heads don't know anything and will tell you ANYTHING to get you to buy Dinar, that's their only purpose! Besides they wouldn't allow such a question as that and you must full well know that! Lol, SURELY you were just kidding, BONDLADY? That's a good one, thanks for the laugh!


Besides as I said that was only something to consider, I am not arguing anything but THINK about it!

All this bantering about whether or not exporting/selling Dinar is legal or not and how Executive Order 13303 protects Dinar holders when in fact, this IS A FACT, the currency you hold was sold for "collector purposes" and the seller denied and will continue to deny that it was for investment purposes! You can't argue that, it's a fact otherwise they would have long ago gone to jail! On top of that you have no record what-so-ever of any "investment" transaction and ALL or your transactions were done outside of official and regulated channels licensed for investment/speculation, you have NONE of that but rather you have "Collector" currency sold SPECIFICALLY as being NOT an investment or even speculation!

What part of the above is not true?

How can you think you can use Iraqi foreign investment rules or EO 13303 to force Iraq to pay you for your "collection"?

Honestly do you have one single thing, ANYTHING, that shows your Dinar to be an investment?

MD13 wrote:dwm007 your a joke

Well it looks like I stuck a nerve there, very predictable however and the usual reaction whenever a Dinarian can't answer something.

No sense in getting your panties in a wad I only wanted to get you to think about this and apparently that was accomplished! LOL! Rather than get insulted why don't you address a couple of those issues? Was your Dinar sold as an investment? Do you have ANYTHING to show that it was anything other than for collector purposes? If you do then I am absolutely certain the FBI would LOVE to talk with you about that, they are trying their best to show that these dealers were selling to investor/speculators! The dealers' main defense is categorical denial that they ever sold a single Dinar for investment or speculation so any documentation you could produce would show it as being solely for collector purposes, am I wrong?


 Seriously, you don't actually put your faith in people like Bondlady do you? Really?

So you've came over here to advertise for Bondlady?

And he/she gets his/her info from Bondlady? So why are we even having this discussion?

MD13 wrote:

[b]http://wealthwatch.world 

Link doesn't work.

Sorry, but Bondlady is clueless.

1. She's a bondswoman, correct? Would you take investment advice from Dog the bounty hunter? I wouldn't.

2. She had repeated massive melt downs when she was at DV, screaming that people were bashing her and attacking her. They weren't bashing or attacking, they were QUESTIONING her logic and her intel (which were both VERY poor). And her ego (like most gurus) is so massive and fragile that she couldn't take it and left.

3. She posts news articles, but then puts her spin on them. The news articles are always meaningless and her spin is always wrong. Period. Provably.

4. She spent two years telling everyone that Maliki was the bad guy and that Shabbibi was putting the RV through and that deleting 3 zeros was the RV. Then shabbibi got the boot and she immediately (literally overnight) did a 180 and started telling everyone that Shabbibi wanted to lop and Malika kicked him out because of it and that it now meant the RV was good to go. Then a while later she flip flopped again. Since then she's probably flip flopped 5 more times.

5. Who are her "currency professionals"? People that make 10 bucks an hour working for an MSB? You realize that all the Sterling guys are "currency professionals", right? They've had all their stuff confiscated, have admitted via email that the RV is a scam, and are awaiting a federal ass pounding. Being a "currency professional" doesn't automatically make you credible, even if it's true that you are one.

MD13 wrote:FS4Enthusiast


what is your background?

None of your business.

what can you state about this investment for a 100% fact as to what will happen with it?

"The RV" is a scam and will never happen.

[b]what are your sources?

The CBI.  The BBB.  John Jagerson. Numerous state and federal agencies.  Wells Fargo.  Numerous criminal indictments for those pumping the scam.  Basic economics.  Investopedia.  Common sense.

Allow me to answer that, what are our "sources" you ask?

 What "Sources" would he need to back up his statements? Look at what he said, he needs "sources" to back up the statement that Bondlady is a pumper! Apparently you are hopelessly hooked on Hopium and, again very predictability, like people who follow clueless gurus you get angry and resort to shouting and irrational statements and questions (just look at your last three or four posts)! Bondlady is a pumper, pure and simple, she too gets angry when someone questions her or disagrees but she is in a position to silence her detractors so she can come off looking knowledgeable, the TRUTH  is she is absolutely clueless! You said she "brings Iraq news sites" but then what does she do? She "explains" (SPINS!) their meaning to everyone, that is she takes everyday day to day Iraqi news and spins it into making it look like it is pointing to "RV"! Next time you are there look at what I am telling you, it's one thing to post a news story and then follow up with an open discussion but it's quite another to post a news story and then say "ok this is what this means" and then shut out ANY and ALL dissenting opinion! As was pointed out already Bondlady continuously pumps out stupid nonsense, things such as how deleting the zeros means RV, which is total BS, and immediately shouts down or simply shuts out any logical dissent.

 Are you incapable of thinking for yourself? Seriously I ask that in all honesty and not as an insult, do you really need someone to explain the news articles to you? Especially a faceless anonymous person on the internet who stands to make a lot of money by getting you to believe the "RV" is about to happen. You ask "what are your sources"? You seem to think that everyone needs "sources" like yourself, well our "sources" are the CBI, the IMF, numerous State and Federal agencies, LEGITIMATE financial professionals from CREDIBLE sites like Forbes (you HAVE heard of Forbes right? You should go there sometime, do a simple search for "DINAR" when you get there) and true professionals like John Jagerson, people who use their REAL NAMES and have VERIFIABLE and prestigious educational and business backgrounds in economics and finances, in other words TRUE professionals!

You however are relying on a totally unknown person on the internet who is of highly questionable reputation and chooses to remain completely anonymous using a silly nickname as identification. Apparently she was, prior to becoming a speculation "expert", a member of the highly respected profession of Bail Bondsman (sarcasm intended of course) and that's HER educational background in finances! She has absolutely no verifiable financial background and is well known for spouting total nonsense based on economic and even mathematical impossibilities! You know NOTHING about this person but yet you follow blindly and without question? She can say anything she likes, twist news stories to mean anything she wants and because no one can disagree or are allowed to point out the inaccuracies you and some others think she is "knowledgeable", LOL!

THINK for yourself for a change! Use a little Logic! This person you so admire has been so terribly wrong about so many things (verifiably wrong!) yet you put your faith in her? Wrong about what you might ask? You might start with her take on the "deleting three zeros" issue that has already been mentioned, look at the silly position she has taken on that in the past and when cornered and obviously wrong with no way to explain her way out of it she suddenly has a different take on it hoping people will forget what she said in the past!

Get your head out of the clouds and think for yourself, these gurus, including Bondlady, are clueless and are nothing more than pumpers who's only mission is to get you to buy more Dinar! They get commissions and ad revenue for doing this and they will say ANYTHING to keep you stringing along, do you REALLY think they spend all that time and effort to bring you "news" just out of the goodness of their hearts, really? These people are paid con artists and nothing more, it's as simple as that and you should be ashamed and embarrassed to admit you believe them and use them as your "sources"!

MD, why don't you discuss the issues that have been posted? Is it because you don't like what you see  and can't explain how it's wrong? I asked some very simple questions such as "do you have anything at all to show that your holdings are anything more than a "collection"? Do you have ANY documentation at all that shows you entered into a legal investment or do you simply have a generic "certificate of authenticity" that has not a single serial number on it to show WHICH notes are authentic? Did your "Broker" deny from the start that the currency you bought was for an investment or speculation? 

You of course know the answers to those questions and it scares you, THAT'S why you are obviously angry! Look at your last few posts, nothing addresses the issue, you simply start shouting by using such bold font and trying to get your hero (Bondlady) to come to the rescue by pointing us there. You can't shout it it down, it is what it is so why don't you stop the shouting and try to discuss the issue? You could start by either answering some of those questions or by showing where we are wrong.