Question to Church Goers

thanks :winky winky:

Alot of the churches and most U.S Court systems and police stations have the gold fringed flag, or ' Admiralty/ Jolly Roger'' flag, and has to do with great britain, and we learned this in school, unless, THIS is a lie, too-This is why alot of the tax money goes to sustain the 'Queen' of England, as she is the basically the one that controls the united states laws,and such- We WERE under 'constitutional law, or common' law, which eventually, the U.S WILL return to- I believe the admiralty law was imposed upon us sometime back in the 1800's-There were probably more reasons than that, but this is just a summary of what the Crown of England/admiralty flag was all about- Someone correct me if I'm wrong...........

no you are correct...

just want to know if your churches have this on the altars.

Purplesky wrote:I know.. odd request but it is important.

Oh, I read about this somewhere recently - maybe on a Wingit link. Isn't it tied up with all that "True Republic" malarkey? If it's got a gold fringe, it's not the "real" flag. Or it is the real flag. Or it's the Khazarian mafia's flag. Or it's a signal to St Germain.

Or something.

Are you sure it's "important"? :winky winky:

yes.. it is important to me as I am putting together some research for an article.

I don't go to wingnuts so I missed that but this is unrelated to them.

Yes, Purpleskyz, the church that we go to has the admiralty flag, the protestant churches, along with the catholic churches...

Thanks T

has it always been there?

It has as long as I can recollect- My father pointed it out to me years ago, around '68-69'-It was in All Souls Congregational Church in Bangor, Maine- I'm not sure if it has been since removed-

This is interesting:

Claims made in support of the income tax conspiracy include:
   
The gold fringe around the American flag, as displayed in many federal courts, designates them as Admiralty courts, which cannot hear other kinds of cases, or signal that the court is operating under martial law.[4] No court has ever upheld this argument, as neither the presence (or absence) of a flag (or of any other standard or element of decor), nor the fringe on a flag (which has no heraldic or vexillological significance), has any bearing whatsoever on the jurisdiction of a court. In United States v. Greenstreet, the United States District Court for the Northern District of Texas noted:

   Defendant Greenstreet's response to Plaintiff's motion for summary judgment identifies this Court as an 'Admiralty Court' without further discussing his allegation. If his reference is to be construed as a jurisdictional challenge, his motion is denied. Others have attempted to persuade the judiciary that fringe on an American flag denotes a court of admiralty. In light of the fact that this Court has such a flag in its courtroom, the issue is addressed. The concept behind the theory the proponent asserts is that if a courtroom is adorned with a flag which happens to be fringed around the edges, such decor indicates that the court is one of admiralty jurisdiction exclusively. To think that a fringed flag adorning the courtroom somehow limits this Court's jurisdiction is frivolous … Unfortunately for Defendant Greenstreet, decor is not a determinant for jurisdiction."[5]

from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_conspiracy_arguments

And this article seems quite reasonable:

http://www.theamericanview.com/is-there-a-significance-of-the-gold-fringe-on-the-american-flag/

:tup: 

YES! and I posted that link with this query on the other social media that I posed this question.

Now as to the churches status with Admiralty? This is the crux of my investigation. Inquiring minds need to know LOL

Thanks Ethel

Ethel Buscuit, this was a great find, and solidifies this country's reason for unjust taxation-But, it does constitute a 'type' of martial law, seeing how the jurisdiction of the united states IS in fact controlled by a foreign entity, such as by great britain and the laws of such contained therein, and, ALL judges, lawyers and U.S. prosecutors are therefore operating illegally, and are illegal entities enforcing basically the laws of England or Britain upon the people here in the U.S.- Constitutional law and, or common law was, and still is the 'LEGAL' law of the land-although we would be hard pressed to try to get that point across to the 'limeys' in the courts today- Please don't take that the wrong way- :winky winky:

Don't worry Terbo - I won't take that the wrong way. I find it's best to be gracious and forgiving to our colonial subjects. Bless your little cotton socks!

:winky winky:

ahahahaha

Hey folks....  On request, I'm dropping by to offer my thoughts on the meaning, if any, of the US flag fringed in gold.  

An advance disclosure may be in order.  I am an attorney.  I've been practicing for 34 years in several areas of law.  I'm told by those who know me well that I have a rebellious streak, so I live under the belief that no compulsion to conform is a part of my thinking and opinions.

A second caveat...  As an attorney, I realize there are a number of folks here reading this, possibly in a higher percentage than in the general population, who believe that I am "an agent of a foreign country". This comes from several layers of failed analysis, each of which builds on the successive layers of pseudo-analysis.  If one isn't familiar with this status of US attorney within the belief of some folks, allow me to abbreviate the thinking as I best understand it.  

The 13th Amendment to the US Constitution apparently is not as we all think (so you would be led to believe).  Instead, a prior effort which failed (prior to the current known and ratified 13th Amendment ending slavery) is thought of as "actually" somehow having succeeded ratification despite an insufficient number of ratifying states.  This prior attempt included language which removed citizenship on any person conferred or retaining a foreign country's title of nobility.  As to attorneys, here's where the analysis gets almost comical.  Those adhering to "attorneys are foreign agents" theory, have some variations on the argument but follow along these basic lines:  The reason why attorneys are foreign agents results from them having to swear allegiance to the Crown of England and the Crown Temple before they can get a license to legally practice law.  Proof of this is 1) they are members of the state bar, and 2) they can or do use the name suffix, "Esq.", denoting they are nobility.  

Of course, the silliness of this is 1) no attorney "swears allegiance" (or even says they like) England to be "sworn in" as an attorney (see the "oath of office" for California attorneys, below), and 2) the name suffix "Esq." denotes one is an attorney, not an attorney's title of nobility (look it up in a dictionary).
"I solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California, and that I will faithfully discharge the duties of an attorney and counselor at law to the best of my knowledge and ability."  (Seems pretty slanted toward American, right?)

Why do I go into this while answering the original question about a gold fringed flag?  I have a bit of history researching what used to be called the "Patriot Movement", as far back as the early 1980s.  As it turns out, while grumblings about the "lost 13th Amendment" have existed for a very long time, it was in the late 1970s and early 1980s when they got more popular traction among folks who were not originally fringe, conspiracy theorists.  The arguments about attorneys as foreign agents and the "lost 13th Amendment" have similar reasoning styles, if not root origins. Arguments like these are known for their circuity and convoluted quality.  The typical failure is that at one or (usually) more points requires a leap of faith, absent facts or proof, such as, no one has ever ventured to show proof that American states' bar associations are "wholly owned subsidiaries" of some foreign (usually said to be British) government agency.

I respect all theories for intellectual examination and discussion.  I do not respect theories which are argued by those who demand belief without rational proof.  To the point:  There is no statute or code or law or binding case holding in the US which requires use of gold fringe on the American flag.  Equally, there is no prohibition against such.  There are customs and practices which have evolved.  It is popular to imbue such customs and practices with insidious meaning or implications, but that is the ideology driven imagination of the ones who push such nonsense.  

It matters not how fervently one may believe that gold fringe on an American flag is absolute proof that where it flies is "under maritime law", it simply does not follow.  Maritime law does indeed apply in some contexts, but that is not the case because of the decoration on the flag.  Maritime law applies by statute and case law in explicit circumstances most commonly associated with waterways of all kinds.  There is no mention of "all courtrooms displaying a gold fringed flag", let alone churches, schools, parades, or anything of the sort.  This is truly after the style of the "hitlerian lie", meaning, a lie so often repeated as to be taken for true despite the absence of proof.

There are those who will differ from my view.  That's fine.  This is still America - a country of some remaining freedoms.  I strongly urge 2 things to those who might be tempted to listen to that, or any, point of view (including mine!):  1) Listen carefully for logical gaps based on your own common sense.  2) Don't read one article from a "fringe" website - read 10 articles!  Never make a stand on anything without giving it an honest review.  Finally, 3) check yourself - take care that you don't allow your distaste of current government or its leadership or the malignant dominance of large corporations, or anything in your current philosophy to distort your analysis.  If you do, you're just a lemming following a different leader.

That's my view.

Awesome response therealrex!!
Much appreciated!

This fact you can check- Why aren't we under common law, or constitutional law? The Admiralty fringed flag says it all-And as far as no church, or court without a gold fringed flag, go to your local courtroom and step inside, then tell me what you see, behind the Judge's bench- They are loudly displayed here in the State of Florida, and have seen them myself,INCLUDING the churches I've been to in the past.....

Display of Flags in Catholic Churches
 

Surprisingly to many, there are no regulations of any kind governing the display of flags in Roman Catholic Churches. Neither the Code of Canon law, nor the liturgical books of the Roman rite comment on this practice. As a result, the question of whether and how to display the American flag in a Catholic Church is left up to the judgment of the diocesan bishop, who in turn often delegates this to the discretion of the pastor.

The origin of the display of the American flag in many parishes in the United States appears have its origins in the offering of prayers for those who served during the Second World War (1941-1945). At that time, many bishops and pastors provided a book of remembrance near the American flag, requesting prayers for loved ones – especially those serving their country in the armed forces – as a way of keeping before the attention of the faithful the needs of military families. This practice has since been confirmed in many places during the Korean, Viet Nam and Iraqi conflicts.

The Bishops' Committee on the Liturgy has in the past encouraged pastors not to place the flag within the sanctuary itself, in order to reserve that space for the altar, the ambo, the presidential chair and the tabernacle. Instead, the suggestion has been made that the American flag be placed outside the sanctuary, or in the vestibule of the Church together with a book of prayer requests. It remains, however, for the diocesan bishop to determine regulations in this matter.

http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/sacred-art-and-music/architecture-and-environment/display-of-flags-in-catholic-churches.cfm

You know......  I realize my responses were focused on the "gold fringe issue" to the neglect of the "flag in church" issue.  Having thoroughly beaten to death the fringe question, thank you Ssmith for handling the "in church" part of the question.

TheRealRex wrote:You know......  I realize my responses were focused on the "gold fringe issue" to the neglect of the "flag in church" issue.  Having thoroughly beaten to death the fringe question, thank you Ssmith for handling the "in church" part of the question.

:tup:

As a longtime service member, and senior enlisted I am somewhat familiar with flag law and etiquette. Gold fringe is considered an "honorable enhancement", and is not considered to be integral to the flag, but rather a separate object. Interestingly, it was not until 1912 that the design of the US flag was codified. The fringe came into ceremonial use around 1835, and was not approved for official use by the Department of the Army until 1895. Given that the usage predated the law, it is significant, I think, that the use of the fringe is neither authorized nor prohibited in the US Code. It's use is customary but completely optional regardless of person or organization. BTW, our local court does not have a fringe on it's flag. It's use is limited to small flagpoles inside or carried in a parade simply because it's use elsewhere would result in a tangled mess.

Flag etiquette does dictate that if there is a fringe on the flag, or a golden cord and tassels attached to the flagpole such as with regimental colors, then it shall be added to the US flag as well. That's the closest I have seen to any proscription, and as best as I can determine, it is a mater of heraldic tradition, not law.

WOW!

Such great info so thanks to everyone that has commented on this thread.

I've only seen the gold fringe used inside buildings or in ceremonies like parades. Flags that fly outside on poles seem to be without fringe.

Here's what's on Wikipedia:

Decoration

Traditionally, the flag may be decorated with golden fringe surrounding the perimeter of the flag as long as it does not deface the flag proper. Ceremonial displays of the flag, such as those in parades or on indoor posts, often use fringe to enhance the appearance of the flag.

The first recorded use of fringe on a flag dates from 1835, and the Army used it officially in 1895. No specific law governs the legality of fringe, but a 1925 opinion of the attorney general addresses the use of fringe (and the number of stars) "... is at the discretion of the Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy ..." as quoted from footnote in previous volumes of Title 4 of the United States Code law books and is a source for claims that such a flag is a military ensign not civilian. However, according to the Army Institute of Heraldry, which has official custody of the flag designs and makes any change ordered, there are no implications of symbolism in the use of fringe.^[67] Several federal courts have upheld this conclusion,^[68][69] most recently and forcefully in Colorado v. Drew, a Colorado Court of Appeals judgment that was released in May 2010.^[70] Traditionally, the Army and Air Force use a fringed National Color for parade, color guard and indoor display, while the Sea Services (Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard) use a fringeless National Color for all uses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States#Decoration

I guess one of my questions is why in the hell a flag is even in a church to begin with. You know that whole separation of church and state thing and all. It must serve a purpose as they never do anything without an agenda.

Thanks again to all that have posted a comment. It all helps me on my process for my research.

Purpleskyz wrote: It all helps me on my process for my research.

I ran across this...

http://usa-the-republic.com/items%20of%20interest/flag%20code.html

Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Notice the wording: "Congress shall make no law... establishing or prohibiting free exercise..." The argument can be made that as interpreted, the Supreme Court has in fact violated the very intent of the framers of the 1st Amendment. The "Wall of Separation" so commonly quoted was. in context, specifically addressing the subject of a state church. Remember, many of the founder's families had come here to escape a state church, be it the Church of England, (Episcopal) or the Roman Catholic Church in France and Spain, or the Lutheran Church in Germany, Austria, etc. As such, the framers of the Constitution and the Bill or Rights very clearly were concerned that such a state religion be prevented.

In the case of Jefferson's letter, it was answering a letter from the Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut. The Baptists were very much a minority in New England, in fact, the Congregationalist church was legally established in Massachusetts and Connecticut. Congregationalists who were strongly federalist as well, and not only opposed Jefferson, absolutely vilified and pilloried him. The sole Island of support in the New England region for Jefferson was in fact the Danbury Baptists. As such, the letter can and should be seen in a political light with the intent to reward and reassure his supporters, and a shot at his opponents.

A careful and unbiased study of Jefferson's life and other writings will support this opinion. In fact Jefferson himself directly addressed this letter later in life writing; [The letter to the Danbury Baptists] "furnishes an occasion too, which I have long wished to find, of saying why I do not proclaim fastings & thanksgivings, as my predecessors did." It was not his opposition to religion, but his belief that the government had no place in regulating it, that drove his steadfast refusal to issue proclamations designating days of prayer, fasting, etc. He also argued that since no powers for the regulation of religious exercise had been proscribed in the Constitution, any such powers belonged to the states. BTW, that was something he did indeed do as Governor of Virginia.

In fact, Jefferson established a custom of regularly attending church services held in House of Representatives, a custom that continued until the Civil War. He invited minsters of various denominations to preach, and in fact in 1806 invited female evangelist, Dorothy Riple to preach there. Jefferson also allowed services in other Executive branch buildings, and in fact church was also held in the Supreme Court Chambers. In so doing, Jefferson consciously and deliberately offered symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican (not the party), government. I could go on and on, There are many examples that show Jefferson did not interpret the 1st Amendment as it has been by the courts. I'll close with one quote often attributed to but probably not from Jefferson, at least not directly: "No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example."

Again there are no specific laws regarding the finial used on top of a pole. By custom, a brass ball, eagle, or spear point would be considered appropriate. The military does have some rules however. Generally speaking the bras ball is used for installation flag poles, the spear or spade for unit flags, and the eagle is reserved for the president. The maritime services have protocols governing the design of the finial according to the rank or level of honor due a person.  The only ones I am pretty sure of are a flag officer gets one displaying the number of stars he wears, a junior officer just gets a flat top, and more than 19 guns, (Secretary of Defense and up) a spread winged eagle.

ahahahahaha

oh now I see it and LOL

fitting to both church and state. now it all makes sense bwahahahaha

"One ring to rule them all..."

Yeah, a 'nose' ring- They'll follow anyone anywhere, then-Just like the old addage, 'When you've got them by the 'nads, their hearts and minds WILL follow!!