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Kuwaitis Face Money 'Mess' as Banks Open

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Post by RamblerNash on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:52 pm

Kuwaitis Face Money 'Mess' as Banks Open


March 25, 1991|DAVID FREED | TIMES STAFF WRITER


KUWAIT CITY — It was business as unusual Sunday at the Alahli Bank of Kuwait.

Soldiers nervously cradled AK-47s at the door while normally serene managers dressed in spotless dishdashas scurried from one teller's station to the next. Outside, under the giant oil-fire cloud, those who had come to deposit and withdraw funds waited not-so-patiently in a line that snaked around the corner of the gleaming high-rise building.

"A new start," beamed a ranking bank officer, surveying the scene.

"A complete mess," snapped one customer.

In truth, it was both.

For the first time since liberation nearly a month ago, Kuwait's 10 commercial and specialized banks opened to the public Sunday, an event marked as much by confusion as self-congratulation.

The essential problem, many Kuwaitis and foreign nationals discovered, was that much of the money they had carefully socked away during the Iraqi occupation has been deemed worthless by the Kuwait government.
Kuwaitis Face Money 'Mess' as Banks Open Pixel
After Iraqi forces last year looted gold bullion and dinar bills worth more than $2 billion from the Central Bank--the emirate's version of Ft. Knox--Kuwaiti banking officials who had escaped the country declared that the pilfered cash was no longer valid currency.

Nonetheless, millions of dinars--each worth about $3.48 at the current rate of exchange--ended up in circulation as Iraqi troops used the illegally obtained funds to purchase supplies and services from Kuwaiti merchants.

Some here even received pension benefits paid from stolen Central Bank assets during Iraqi occupation.

"We accept these money in good faith," said one barber. "No one believe the government really cancel this money."

But that is exactly what happened.

Bankers and merchants estimated Sunday that perhaps as much as 25% of Kuwaiti currency presently in circulation may not be worth the stock it is printed on.

After the Iraqis were kicked out Feb. 27, Kuwaiti officials decreed that all dinars presently in circulation would be retired and more than $2 billion in new currency issued after being printed in Britain and Germany. People were told to redeem old dinars for new as soon as the banks opened.

Serial numbers, meanwhile, of the dinars stolen from the Central Bank were posted throughout the emirate, alerting businesses, banks and individuals about which bills were to be rejected as worthless.

Still, many believed that they could trade in their bad dinars for good. They found otherwise after going to the banks on Sunday.

"They won't even give you a box of matches for these," said one man, fanning a stack of dinar bills with his thumb. "We suffer (because) of the Iraqi soldiers. Now we suffer over our money."

Given the lines Sunday, simply getting access to funds on deposit presented difficulties for many cash-starved Kuwaitis who had not been able to visit a bank since the Aug. 2 invasion.

Contesar Hassan said she spent nearly four hours waiting in line Sunday at her bank and never did get in. Despite having no money, she drove her two children up Arabian Gulf Street to the Sultan Center, the only open supermarket in Kuwait city, and implored the manager to let her pay him later for the groceries she needed immediately. He consented, and she filled her cart with cooking oil, rice and bottles of Mr. Clean floor cleaner.
Kuwaitis Face Money 'Mess' as Banks Open Pixel
"Saddam (Hussein) make everything bad," she said.

On the opulent 18th floor of the Alahli Bank, the deputy chairman, Abdul Salam Alawadi, remained matter-of-fact about the long lines and dinar debate.

"It's not a matter of feel sorry or not feel sorry," he said. "There are many problems during the aggression."

A high-ranking official of the Central Bank disclosed Sunday that Kuwaiti officials are investigating the possibility that one of the bank's three managers may have let the Iraqis into the main vault.

None of the main offices of Kuwait's banks sustained any significant damage during Iraqi occupation, although a floor vault at the Alahli Bank does bear the scars of a failed attempt to break into it.

The bank's security manager, Khalid Bashir, said that before Iraqi forces retreated last month, he watched while the Iraqi placed in charge of the bank tried for two hours to open the floor vault, hammering away with a chisel and pipe wrench. The Iraqi finally gave up and fled town just before U.S.-led forces arrived.

"He was in a hurry," Bashir said.

The chisel and wrench were still resting on a nearby desk Sunday.




http://articles.latimes.com/1991-03-25/news/mn-594_1_central-bank
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Post by Ponee on Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:21 am

ARTICLE wrote:Serial numbers, meanwhile, of the dinars stolen from the Central Bank were posted throughout the emirate, alerting businesses, banks and individuals about which bills were to be rejected as worthless.

So if anyone is  holding stolen currency, as some have suggested, then those bills with those serial numbers will NOT be exchangeable.

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Post by RamblerNash on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:01 pm



How did your currency dealer get their Dinars when they can't do business with the CBI?



Didn't Maliki get caught exporting a few things?


ISIS stole a lot of money from Iraq's banks. Where is it now?


Serial numbers "could" be an issue even if it's real currency.
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Post by Ssmith on Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:57 pm

Good Find!
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Post by crazyjerry123 on Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:55 pm

Rambler Nash, you're article was dated in the year  1991, what has that got to do with 2015?

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Post by RamblerNash on Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:13 am

@crazyjerry123 wrote:Rambler Nash, you're article was dated in the year  1991, what has that got to do with 2015?


With all the Dinar that has made it's way out of the country, do you know where your Dinar came from?


https://www.dinardaily.net/t45727-trials-for-dinar-holders-marcus-curtis

Dealers have marketed Dinars that they sell to be un-circulated and in sequential order. How did they get that volume that they sell when they don't do business with the CBI?

Dealers also have provided a certificate of authenticity that they have been un-circulated and/or verified. Who was the authority on that certificate? Is that something the CBI does?
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Post by Kevind53 on Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:59 am

Ummm ... the article was about the Kuwaiti Dinar, KWD post the First Gulf War. Not sure we can draw any valid conclusions from it....

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Post by RamblerNash on Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:11 am



I saw that ssmith posted this in another post here on Dinar Daily.


Adding it here as it mentions Kuwait and the gulf war in regards to the IQD.


Excerpt from the SAR Activity Review
 Suspicious Activity Involving the Iraqi Dinar

Over the last year, the circumstances of the war in Iraq have created the phenomenon of businesses trading in new Iraqi dinars. Many of these businesses advertise or conduct business over the Internet, and suggest that the Iraqi dinar, much like the Kuwaiti dinar following Operation Desert Storm, will increase in value exponentially following United States military involvement in Iraq. Most investors purchase dinars from websites established particularly for selling dinars or from major auction websites.

FinCEN has been receiving inquiries regarding the legitimacy of websites offering Iraqi dinar sales. While it is not necessarily illegal to buy or sell Iraqi currency, there are a number of risks and compliance concerns for the financial community. For example, Iraqi officials state that it is illegal under Iraqi law to export dinars. Therefore, in addition to questions about the source of the currency, and the potential for investment or securities fraud, businesses offering to sell dinars may also pose the risk of being used to fund terrorism or as a vehicle for money laundering. FinCEN also has a particular interest in these businesses because they may be money services businesses required to comply with the Bank Secrecy Act.

Any United States entity that buys or sells currency, including Iraqi dinars, in amounts of more than $1,000 U.S. to any one person in one day may be a money services business under FinCEN’s regulations at 31 C.F.R. Section 103.11(uu). [Note: there have been questions about the old dinar with Hussein’s picture on it. That dinar ceased to be legal tender around January 15, 2004 and thus ceased to be currency for purposes of the Bank Secrecy Act.] Money services businesses include:


  • Money transmitters;
  • Currency Dealers or Exchangers (except those who do not exchange more than $1,000 in currency or monetary or other instruments for any person on any day in one or more transactions);
  • Check cashers (except those who do not cash checks in an amount greater than $1,000 in currency or monetary or other instruments for any person on any day in one or more transactions);
  • Issuers, sellers, or redeemers of traveler’s checks, money orders, or stored value (except those who do not issue, sell or redeem such instruments in an amount greater than $1,000 in currency or monetary or other instruments for or from any person on any day in one or more transactions);


Money services businesses generally are required to register with FinCEN, to establish anti-money laundering programs, and to comply with recordkeeping and reporting requirements under the Bank Secrecy Act. Dinar sales websites frequently claim that their businesses are registered with the Department of the Treasury. These assertions are not always accurate. Further, it may be diffi- cult to discern from the money services business registration list on FinCEN’s website (www.msb.gov) whether the business is in fact registered, particularly if the business is an affiliate of, or a “doing business as” alias for, the business that is registered. Moreover, even if the business is registered with FinCEN, that registration does not guarantee that the business is in compliance with other Bank Secrecy Act requirements or with applicable state law. For these reasons, a financial institution that conducts business with entities selling Iraqi dinars should conduct appropriate due diligence to assure itself of the legitimacy of such entities. All financial institutions that do business with, and potential customers of, such money services businesses, are reminded that registration with FinCEN in no way authenticates either the legitimacy of a business, or the compliance of the business with any federal, state, or local laws.

An analysis of FinCEN’s Suspicious Activity Report database for filings referencing Iraqi dinars indicated suspicion of the use of Internet dealers of Iraqi dinars in terrorist financing, although not all of the corresponding narratives provided clear or complete justification about the terrorist financing nature of the activity reported. This serves as a potent illustration of the critical importance of a clear and complete narrative description when filing a Suspicious Activity Report. Particularly when terrorist financing is suspected, conclusory statements with no supporting facts or justification are of limited use to law enforcement in pursuing their investigations.

Further analysis of businesses engaged in dinar sales is ongoing. For instance, FinCEN analyzed Bank Secrecy Act data (including Suspicious Activity Reports, Currency Transaction Reports, and Reports of International Transportation of Currency or Monetary Instruments) involving the purchase of Iraqi dinars to support a law enforcement initiative that uncovered an elaborate network of structured money movement by and to persons suspected or convicted of substantial fraud or other illicit international activities.

Excerpted from SAR Activity Review Issue 8, page 41


http://www.bankersonline.com/security/sar/dinarsar.html
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Post by RamblerNash on Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:15 pm


Hear Ty from Sterling say where the the Dinar comes from that the dealers buy.



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Post by Ssmith on Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:49 pm

Isn't this interesting....  Currency comes UAE, Kuwait, Jordan?  I thought illegal to export currency out of Iraq as Article 32 states.

So how are do we really know that the currency Sterling and others sold wasn't stolen?
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Post by Ponee on Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:57 pm

We don't

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Post by Kevind53 on Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:35 pm

Only time will tell .... personally my life is far too busy right now to bother with what if's that can't be answered. Only God knows, God is in control, and as far as I am concerned, that's a pretty good arrangement.

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Post by kenlej on Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:22 am

It really doesn't matter if it was stolen or not because u will not find anybody to even buy it back at what u paid for it let alone 1000s of % more. Iraq has been exporting their dinar illegally since at least 2005 http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=23473504 . Where do u think they got their USD to back their shit paper from? It was suckers buying it for $1000 USD thinking they would become millionaires. It's figured that at least 25 trillion dinar has been exported since 2994 so that's 250 billion USD that went into Iraq and a lot of other countries counting the Bushes. It's been a scam started from the top of our government and Iraqs plus a few more beside it.The dealers and gurus are the small fish in the pond and that is why it was allowed to go on for so long. The Kuwait dinar never lost any value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuwaiti_dinar#mediaviewer/File:KWD_against_USD.PNG and was worth more in 1990 than today and the only people that made any money was the dealers paying Kuwaitis who was running for their lives pennies on the dollar to get USD so if u believe u can get your money back through dinar dealers good luck because I think you're to late. I've warned people for 2 years it was a scam so u won't get any sympathy from me when u finally figure out u have some very expensive toilet paper LMAO
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Post by dwm007 on Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:52 am

This is something I have been saying for a long time about the new bills everyone seems to insist on and even pay extra money for! Not only do you not know where it came from and have no way of knowing whether the Iraqis will claim it was stolen (quite likely!) but FOR CERTAIN by Iraqi law it was exported illegally and being in new sequentially numbered bundles it is HIGHLY LIKELY they know where those serials numbers went to! They can easily and LEGALLY prohibit them from re-entering the country and simply declare them illegal and thus invalid, they do not even have to be stolen since they became technically illegal when they left the country. People insist on crisp new bills and pay a premium for them over used worn bills but WHY??????? New or old the bills will exchange (if there were to be an exchange) at the same rate so why the new bills? Since the old bills have been circulated they would be a much safer bet that no serial numbers are recorded and there would probably be no way to prove whether or not they are stolen.

I don't get it, do people actually think Iraq is going to welcome those bills back into the country at 1000 times or more the price they sold them for? I think that if the time comes to exchange this currency the old worn bills will be far more likely to have value while those fancy crisp new bills with recorded serial numbers will be declared illegally exported, stolen or otherwise invalid because it's only common sense that the Iraqis would want as few as possible to return!

I think it's a reasonable bet that Iraq has probably already written off every serial number it has recorded that left the country!

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Post by Kevind53 on Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:16 am

It was a roll of the dice then, it is a roll of the dice now, I only spent "play money" on dinar, and either way, I sure the heck are not going to lose any sleep over it.

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Post by dwm007 on Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 am

Please don't misunderstand my point, I was not talking scam or or any of the usual negative aspects of investing in the currency in general. Rather my point is that, and this is just my personal belief based on the reasons given, that the older circulated bills that almost everyone avoids as much as possible may very well be a much safer bet. Think about it, those pallets of crisp new bills bundled in sequentially numbered stacks were never circulated after arriving from the printer and it's a pretty good bet that the Iraqis have a record of where those numbers went and who took them. The old circulated bills were introduced into public circulation after they were received and after that tracking them became pretty much impossible, these likely left Iraq with soldiers, travelers, merchants or even maybe secretly smuggled out for investment sale here in the States and other parts of the world but either way it's FAR less likely that the Iraqis know whether or not those serial numbers are in the hands of investors. Still folks insist, and pay a premium for, those crisp new bills when (just my opinion of course) the old circulated bills just might be a much safer bet.

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Post by Kevind53 on Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:43 am

Some of us have been in this long enough that to the best of my memory, the only option was uncirculated bills ... either way, as I said, I'm not gonna sweat it.

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Post by RamblerNash on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:02 am



As Ty Rhames said in the video above "What's the source of your Dinar"





Dinar Inc. "We touch the soil at least every two weeks"

I'm sure that they have the proper customs records that they can supply you and other documentation showing that it doesn't come from "savory" sources. Ask for them.
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Post by RamblerNash on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:40 am



"I'm sure that they have the proper customs records that they can supply you and other documentation showing that it doesn't come from "savory" sources. Ask for them."


https://www.dinardaily.net/t46828-reporting-of-currency-monetary-instrument-transactions-and-structuring-investigations

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"RV OR NOT....DINAR HOLDERS JUST MAY BE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THAT LAW.
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https://www.dinardaily.net/t46809-update-court-filing-against-dinar-corp
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Post by RamblerNash on Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:08 pm



Does this type of Certificate of Authenticity from a Dealer really mean that it came from a "non-criminal origin"??


Who authenticated it? LOL

( NOTE: The dealer markings were smudged out )


Kuwaitis Face Money 'Mess' as Banks Open COZV2OeUAAAxu3V
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Post by RamblerNash on Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:35 pm

@dwm007 wrote:This is something I have been saying for a long time about the new bills everyone seems to insist on and even pay extra money for! Not only do you not know where it came from and have no way of knowing whether the Iraqis will claim it was stolen (quite likely!) but FOR CERTAIN by Iraqi law it was exported illegally and being in new sequentially numbered bundles it is HIGHLY LIKELY they know where those serials numbers went to! They can easily and LEGALLY prohibit them from re-entering the country and simply declare them illegal and thus invalid, they do not even have to be stolen since they became technically illegal when they left the country. People insist on crisp new bills and pay a premium for them over used worn bills but WHY??????? New or old the bills will exchange (if there were to be an exchange) at the same rate so why the new bills? Since the old bills have been circulated they would be a much safer bet that no serial numbers are recorded and there would probably be no way to prove whether or not they are stolen.

I don't get it, do people actually think Iraq is going to welcome those bills back into the country at 1000 times or more the price they sold them for? I think that if the time comes to exchange this currency the old worn bills will be far more likely to have value while those fancy crisp new bills with recorded serial numbers will be declared illegally exported, stolen or otherwise invalid because it's only common sense that the Iraqis would want as few as possible to return!

I think it's a reasonable bet that Iraq has probably already written off every serial number it has recorded that left the country!


I saw another thread that I think you posted about a picture of "stacks" of dinar from Tampa Dinar?


Here's one from Ty Rhames, that he displayed as SMALL percentage of holdings, from what looks like a garage? (circa 2011)




Kuwaitis Face Money 'Mess' as Banks Open COy96t5UAAANqqx



There's about 3.17 Billion Dinar or about 3 million USD worth. That's a lot of currency that made it here to the USA in what looks like consecutive serial numbers...



https://web.archive.org/web/20110109150156/http://thegetteam.com/Ty.php
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Post by EZ Traveler on Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:29 pm

When and if the currency is ever International, Dinar outside of the borders will be legal.  Even though the largest dealer was shut down, I did not read in the legal paperwork that these monies were stolen/smuggled from Iraq.  I doubt very seriously that this is or could be a problem.  All sales were transparent.  While EO 13303 doesn't specifically state Americans can buy Iraqi currency, it talks about commerce and investing in the country which the ownership of this currency is investing which is OK. If WF does in fact act as the lead bank on a potential RV, the recapture of these bills will never be returned to IRAQ and only be used as the offset for oil credits (yet to be proven of course).  Could the currency outside of the country, purchased in bulk, sequential serial numbers, and sold by Sterling/GID be declared invalid?  Sure.  The map of Iraq could be redrawn and all the currency could be changed too.  The moon can still be made of Swiss cheese.

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Post by dwm007 on Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:44 pm

@EZ Traveler wrote:When and if the currency is ever International, Dinar outside of the borders will be legal.  Even though the largest dealer was shut down, I did not read in the legal paperwork that these monies were stolen/smuggled from Iraq.  I doubt very seriously that this is or could be a problem.  All sales were transparent.  While EO 13303 doesn't specifically state Americans can buy Iraqi currency, it talks about commerce and investing in the country which the ownership of this currency is investing which is OK. If WF does in fact act as the lead bank on a potential RV, the recapture of these bills will never be returned to IRAQ and only be used as the offset for oil credits (yet to be proven of course).  Could the currency outside of the country, purchased in bulk, sequential serial numbers, and sold by Sterling/GID be declared invalid?  Sure.  The map of Iraq could be redrawn and all the currency could be changed too.  The moon can still be made of Swiss cheese.

Unfortunately you do not know if it will be legal or not, none of us have any sure way of knowing one way or the other, but for certain Iraq is not going to want to just hand out Billions upon Billions of Dollars to foreign speculators! Why would they?" If you were an Iraqi official what would you do? They can refuse to allow it back in and in fact have down that before, Saddam closed the borders when he changed the currency and those outside the country were left "holding the bag" so to speak, of course that was Saddam but still they DID do it and no one could do anything about it!



13303 in no way protects holders of physical currency, I am not going into that again for umpteenth time but if you will take the time read it then it's quite clear what it really means! Basically it is for private industry that makes contracts with the Iraqis, such as oil companies and private security firms, etc and it does nothing to guarantee speculators anything. Also the U.S. Government taking Dinars redeemed after any "RV" to hold for "oil credits" makes absolutely no sense at all! First off the U.S. Government is NOT in the oil business! Oil imports into this country are done by private enterprise NOT the Government! What would the Government do with all that oil? The U.S. Government is a large consumer of oil, mostly military, but they don't sell a single drop of oil or any kind of petroleum products nor do they own a single refinery, in America this is all done by private interests NOT the Government, in short the oil imported into this country is imported by big oil companies and the Government is just a customer who buys what it consumes. "Oil credits" are just another guru creation, besides why would they wait until after the so-called "RV" when they would have to pay many times more for the Dinar than it could be obtained for now?

Of course none of that makes any sense what-so-ever nor do you have any guarantee what-so-ever that Iraq will take back those Dinars! How can you claim to be an investor of any kind? You bought physical currency without any record what-so-ever of any kind of investment agreement, in fact if you bought from a dealer they specifically told you that it was NOT FOR INVESTMENT PURPOSES otherwise they would have gone to jail for illegally brokering investments! You want to point at 13303 as some kind of guarantee but in fact by buying physical currency you have ignored and bypassed every single legal and regulatory agency, either foreign or domestic, that oversees and regulates investment in foreign interests, the very agencies you would have to turn too!

Think about it, what sort of documentation do you have? What licensed brokerage firm did you go through? That worthless "Certificate of Authenticity" is just that, worthless! It doesn't list a single serial number or in any way identify WHICH notes it purports to authenticate, you could buy a stack of Dinar off Ebay and place that piece of worthless paper with them and no one could tell the difference!

The bottom line is you have a stack of paper notes and absolutely nothing else, if Iraq decides to deny those serial numbers because they left the country without authorization there would be little you could do about it, you have no official documentation at all and no records with any regulatory agency that oversees foreign investments, if Iraq refuse these notes, and likely they can if they so decide, there is no one you can turn to for help.

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Kuwaitis Face Money 'Mess' as Banks Open Empty Re: Kuwaitis Face Money 'Mess' as Banks Open

Post by ADMIN on Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:50 am

Just a review of past discussions and thoughts

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