Muslim community presence in the U.S.

[DruidTroy]

One has to think with the growth of the Muslim communities in the United States, that the RV will have an importance in our country. Just a thought on that one .. what if on the bigger scale that all this trends we see with the dinar is a stepping stone to allow the use of the Iraqi currency in our own market here in the states ?? What if ?? just a thought to put out there.

What affect could that have with the Value of the Dinar along with the Dollar. What if the rise of the currency in South East Asia and not just the Dinar was a prelude to the position of the Dollar. 




yes I think out side the box for a reason. 




With the world events going as they are and the issues in our own government, you have "conspiracy theories"   what if what was going on in our own political system is far worse .. far out side the box that anyone could ever think of?? 




The push for Islamic law to be held in our Courts .. what is the gain ?? what is the purpose and to what end are they going for? 




Let that sink in

[Ponee]

VERY interesting thoughts indeed.  I have NEVER thought of it in that way.

[DruidTroy]

I have all my life since my own awakening seen the meaning behind everything .. there is always something bigger at play from world events down to the very issues you deal with day to day life .. down to your health 

Are we human beings with spiritual experience ... or are we spiritual beings in a human experiance

"The Intuitive mind is a sacred gift. The rational mind is the faithful servant. We as a society have forgotten the Gift and honored the Servant" - Albert Einestein

[Kevind53]

Well ... let's look at a few things. First of all Muslims are far from a cohesive group. They are fractured into sects ... denominations if you will. The largest difference is the different sects truly hate one another. Next in the scheme of things, Iraq is a relatively minor player, neither the largest Muslim majority country, the most advanced, powerful, nor the richest. As far as the push for Sharia Law, that has originated within the Muslim community. It must be resisted as it is inimical to our Judeo-Christian based system of laws and morality. The goals in their pushing for that are obvious ... Sorry, no great conspiracy, just humanity.

[DruidTroy]

no the conspiracy is other things .. i was just pointing out .. and out society is not a based on Judeo-Christan ... our laws are of common law Please see Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that we are not a nation of Christians

--- The Treaty of Tripoli (Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary) was the first treaty concluded between the United States of America and Tripolitania, signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796, and at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797. It was submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797, and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797.


"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries"

[DruidTroy]

the reason Sharia law must be refused cause of our laws on separation of church and state, our republic was founded on freedom of religion control ...

[Kevind53]

On that we will have to agree to disagree. Especially since the vast majority of our founders have stated time and again in their writings that we are indeed founded on Judeo-Christian values. The "Wall of Separation" so often quoted was specifically addressed to concerns expressed by a Baptist congregation in ... Connecticut if memory is serving me correctly. They had expressed concerns regarding establishment of a state religion, in context of their latter and Jefferson's full reply, it is clear that it was never his intent that all vestiges of religion be scrubbed from anything connected to the government.

The entire passage reads as follows:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity [hatred] against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] and as the said States [America] have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

In context it is clearly trying to differentiate the United States from the European powers who had a long history of warfare with the Muslims. Any attempt to interpret it otherwise runs contrary to the rather extensive writings and quotations by John Adams. For example:

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.

and

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

and

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God. (Letter to T Jefferson 1813)

[DruidTroy]

LOL sorry i disagree not the religion .. ideals .. same ideals that can be found anywhere 

[DruidTroy]

you can take the Commandments and apply it to ANY other religion in the world .. you do not need religion to have good morels  


These Eight words the Rede fulfill: 

"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

[DruidTroy]

every history or civics class I sat in our founding fathers were admit to setting up a Republic to get away from Religious Control ... Free to practice your own faith with out fear of the state punishing you

[DruidTroy]

The separation of church and state is one of the cornerstones of America’s foundation. Conservative Christian fundamentalists have sought to crush this cornerstone in the hopes of establishing Christianity as the state religion, an action that would threaten the rest of the foundation that makes up the Constitution. These conservatives contend that the Founding Fathers dreamed of making America a Christian state at the expense of those who practice other religions or none at all.

“If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789

 “Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792



 “We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition… In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man’s religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.”
[i]~Founding Father George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793
[/i]


[i]“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.”
[i]~John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” 1787-1788
[/i][/i]

“The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John Adams

 “Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
~Founding Father John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” (1787-88)
 “We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.”
~Founding FatherJohn Adams, letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785
“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802
 “In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814
 “Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.” ~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
 “I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, January 26, 1799
 “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
[i]~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813[/i]
“Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual.

[i][i]State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights.
[/i][/i]

[DruidTroy]

hrmmm well i tried to place this and look colorful and stuff ... now its all messed up I gotta fix my settings

[DruidTroy]

and further to insert the history of Christian religion it self is Pagan .. in any all form of the idea. So if one wishes to contest that the US is a Nation of Christianity, then it is also a Nation of Pagan roots

[Kevind53]

No Christianity is not pagan, although some traditions of man may have some pagan roots. However that is NOT Christianity, but ritual. I am not a religious man though I pastor a church. If asked I will say I am a man of faith, and a follower of Christ. I have spent many years reading of and studying our founding fathers and the early history of this nation and have somewhere north of 100 books on the subject in my personal collection most of which I have read, some more than once.

BTW you attributed the same quote to George Washington and John Adams. (Although out of context, Adams is correct.)

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God Governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"
Benjamin Franklin

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
Benjamin Franklin

"How many observe Christ's birthday! How few his precepts!
O! 'tis easier to keep holidays than commandments."
Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1757

"Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature."
Benjamin Franklin

(OK so the second has nothing to do with the topic, but I love it anyway!)

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

"The General orders this day to be religiously observed by the forces under his Command, exactly in manner directed by the Continental Congress. It is therefore strictly enjoined on all officers and soldiers to attend Divine service, And it is expected that all those who go to worship do take their arms, ammunition and accoutrements, and are prepared for immediate action, if called upon." General Orders of George Washington Commander and Chief of The Continental Army.

In his Inaugural Speech, April 30, 1789,
"...it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes...."

"for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed....
And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions...to promote the knowledge and practice of the true religion and virtue...."
Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3rd of October, A.D. 1789"

"Can the liberties of a nation be sure when we remove their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people, that these liberties are a gift from God? Thomas Jefferson

"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." Thomas Jefferson

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of mankind." Thomas Jefferson

"I concur with the author in considering the moral precepts of Jesus as more pure, correct, and sublime than those of ancient philosophers." Thomas Jefferson

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." Thomas Jefferson

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
Thomas Jefferson

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

[religion is] "Deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." Thomas Jefferson

Finally, we can not rightly interpret the writings of our founders except in the context of their lives and times. The founding fathers of the United States of America were men of deep religious convictions based in the Bible and their Christian faith in Jesus Christ. Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees. The Revolutionary War and writing of the foundational documents took place in the context of the "Great Awakening," a series of revivals taking place stating in the mid 1700s. This was a massive movement, estimated to have touched somewhere between half and 3/4 of the population.

All of the founding fathers, including Jefferson were members and attendees of a local church. Jefferson established regular Sunday church services in the Capital Building. I could go on and on, I have 85 pages of quotes I have collected over many years of study.

[Ssmith]

What about the religious symbols on Federal Buildings in Washington, DC?

[DruidTroy]

ahh you mean the masonic symbols as well ... you have misplaced facts that religion adapted the symbols from other places ... religion is not that old in comparison to the symbols they use them self. I'm glad you have years and years of study. point here is that your mind is religiously set soo you will see and think that way. I broke free of the restraint of religious dogma when I was 12 and see a bigger picture to so many things. I could invite many many others to this form for a nice in depth discussion but i already carried on more than I cared to for the sole fact that "If you could talk reason with religious people, there would be no religious people" I am spiritual .. not religious  


after all religion and politics were invented for the same reason ... control by way of fear and just cause someone will goto church does not make the religious, and the meanest most emotionally harmful people I know are full members of church .. I mean you are familiar with West Boro Baptist church

[DruidTroy]

and it is the religious groups that are trying to take my rights to bear arms away ... its also that same group that is trying to make law to prevent two gay adults who are in love from marrying .. yet Charles Manson can marry and not one little peep over that .... i mean think about that

[DruidTroy]

All religions in the world are very similar ... yet they all argue and even tend to start wars over who is more right then the other, all while ignoring that they are soo linked Muslim / Christian for example They are soo sooo similar its not even funny. Jesus is mentioned in the Qu'ran 322 times over Mohammed, yet the government has the two cultures clashing bait you in a religious war with each other. 

They have even succeeded in turning our country clocks back to white vs black in our community 
instigating race wars among each other  

Religion will have you think that if you break a man made rule you will be punished and dammed to hell for all eternity by a Deity they claimed to have ever lasting love if you but ask for him to come into your heart ..

my personal view of looking at it is, the holy spirit is there all along you just have to look for it

[Billyg]

And back to the days of Jesus I will say we where pagans to him but, brought into his flock. The general definition or thought of "Pagan" by the general public has changed from the year 30A.D. and now. I also will add that our nations founders where of Christians and these beliefs are placed into the constitution in some form. I do go and copy the different parts of quotes and search to read the rest to understand more as a whole. [Just as I do for political ads]. Although ,obviously not at all educated as well as DruidTroy in his beliefs or Kevin53 in his, I have to say at least this sight allows for friendly debates of such. At the end of the day we can read both sides and still maintain relationships with the ability to understand each others beliefs and agree to disagree or agree without letting emotions getting involved.

[DruidTroy]

the real meaning of pagan just means Country Dweller .. or person of the old ways. You can find that definition dating back to when Christianity started to influence the kingdoms. In the kingdoms themself were highly Christian and the "rule" area so to speak the people in that areas were called "Pagans" = Country dwellers, followers of the old ways. I had once seen it defined as someone with no god. That definition made me laugh for the fact that most pagans have more than one Deity. Today Paganism is seen as an Umbrella of many many faiths all while Paganism is classified as a "religion" not organised at all like christian church. The branches off under it are not in anyway deemed to be religions Its like saying Catholic is to Christianity as is Wicca is to Paganism

[Kevind53]

Actually the words translated as unbeliever in the NT are usually either apeitheo meaning to not allow oneself to be persuaded, to refuse or withhold belief or obedience, or apistos meaning unfaithful or unbelieving. This is an area where a certain care is needed in definitions. For example, I avoid terms like atheist, agnostic, deist, and pagan, because meanings have changed over the years and few understand their meanings anyway. I also draw a difference between a religious person and a believer or disciple. Many religious people behave as you have said. But true beleivers walking in relationship with Christ do not. Here I again have to be careful with meanings and definitions. You mentioned gay marriage. As a follower of Christ who believes the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, I cannot condone the act, any more than I can condone promiscuity, pornography, or any other immoral act. However, at the same time I am called to love the participants, because God loves them. Like a good parent, though He may disapprove of the behavior of a wayward child, and even discipline that child, He does it in love and neither His disapproval or discipline of that child in any way effects that love.

To be clear, I have friends and acquaintances who have embraced homosexual or other lifestyles contrary to the bible. While I may not condone the choices they have made, it does not change how I feel about or treat them. Yes, some do know exactly how I feel, and why because they have asked, but they also know that I accept them as people the way they are.

You are completely wrong about the turning back of the clock. In fact, it is the people you label as "religious" who were at the heart of the anti slavery and equal rights movement, and it is not those you call religious who are causing a divide today. Oh some on both sides will call themselves religious, but they are not beleivers, they can't be and be as hate filled as they are.