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WHAT'S YOUR OPINION ON UKRAINE ?? DinarDailyUpdates?bg=330099&fg=FFFFFF&anim=1

WHAT'S YOUR OPINION ON UKRAINE ??

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Post by Guest Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:19 pm

Hey members & guests .
 
Well today we see the stock market plummeting because of the Ukraine saga.
As I mentioned yesterday look for Dinar pumpers to use this as an excuse for no RV.
 
We are all on the edge of our seats waiting for the Okster post , I'll bet any amount of Dinar he'll also use Ukraine as an excuse.
 
But to shift gears I'd like to invite everyone to weigh in on Russia's decision to move into Ukraine, at least right now into Crimea .
 
Having lived all over the globe I've seen the "Ugly American Image" being much discussed among people's of Central & South America, Europe & Asia including the Middle East.
 
I grew up here and consider myself a patriot American BUT I've also heard strong points regarding the constant American intervention into lands beyond our borders. As many have expressed to me living abroad that they DO ADMIRE us Americans, many greatly jealous of our vast achievements in our short 200 + history BUT many have stated that "We Americans STAY TOO LONG, wear out our welcomes and put our noses tooooo frequently into other nations & other peoples affairs.
 
I believe there is a good points of reason & discussion here.
 
Growing up I saw the tragedy of our involvement in Vietnam. Then in the past decade saw us get involved in both Iraq & Afghanistan and only history will show whether our sacrifices were worth it.
 
It's interesting that whenever The USA decides to go in somewhere it's because we are "Saviors" but whenever countries like Russia goes in somewhere then they are called "INVADERS".  Is that really the case ?
 
Having followed this developing story I see evidence of Crimea whereby a lot of Russians live are in fact  are welcoming the Russian troops presence as a means of making sure things don't get out of hand. Russia has naval & military bases there as well as other significant economic & cultural interests.  Are they really bad guys ?
 
Now whether or not Russia extends it's presence to all of Ukraine remains to be seen.
 
Trying to be objective I guess I really question WHY we (America) always wear the White Hats and everyone else poking their noses somewhere are always sold as the Black Hats ??
 
What's your opinion ??

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Post by Kevind53 Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:43 pm

I think that most any country will see themselves as "white hats," that's just a part of the human condition. As far as the current issues in the Ukraine, time will tell. I personally do not trust Putin. I see him as a leader more in the pattern of Soviet leaders he served under and has, I suspect, visions of returning Russia to the Soviet Union "greatness."

I do not believe we should interfere at this time, although we should show concern, and if asked by Ukraine, render appropriate assistance. While they are not a part of NATO, they are a NATO strategic partner and have been so for over 15 years. As such we have certain obligations to them we need to honor. We also have direct treaties and agreements with Ukraine that we must honor. The question is will our current president do so?

To put another perspective on the question, (OK this will be ridiculous from a strategic standpoint, But ....) while the people of the Crimea are predominantly ethnic Russians, would Russia's actions be any different than Mexico invading certain SW border regions of the US because the people there were primarily ethic Mexicans and supported it? Are not one countries borders as sovereign as the next?

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Post by uglyhorse Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:54 pm

As always, I will be blunt and to the point!

We have no business in Ukraine!! The US is nothing more than an Imperialist Nation! Our politicians and ambassadors and others tied to the government are always stirring up trouble and then they want to send our military in to die for nothing more than to make the rich richer!!

They lie to the American people to do these things and steal more of our hard earned money too. There has been no place that our military has been sent in the last 70 years that has posed a threat to us!! Our politicians, secret agencies and the higher up people in the military make the terrorist as an excuse for these wars we have no business fighting!! They spend not millions, not billions, but trillions of our hard eared money on making WAR!!

When will the American people wake up to these facts!!

We need to bring ALL of our military personnel home and leave these other countries alone!!

WAKE UP, WAKE UP, WAKE UP!!

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Post by Guest Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:00 pm

WELL UGLYHORSE ; You certainly add some great points of discussion. Unfortunately the biggest "Big Business" worldwide is Arms, Military spending, etc. and there's still wide speculation that JFK was assassinated by the Military PTB's since he was in favor of getting out of Vietnam & curtailing our military spending.  Rumors , yes but lots of people believe that to be the case.

Great stuff guys.

Anyone else ?

Guests , Please we welcome your opinions too.

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Post by uglyhorse Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:36 pm

FLORIDA GUY,

That was only one of the reasons JFK was killed!! There were other reasons as well. ( Executive Order 11100 )

The US spends more on the military, every year, than China, Russia, Great Britain, Germany, France and five other top military countries combined!! The USA is the most militaristic country in the world!!

Most of the countries we harass or invade have elected leaders!! After we invade, we leave them with leaders that our leaders have appointed! It does not matter if the people there like these leaders or not!!

To give a few examples: Egypt, Libya, Kuwait and others! These are some of the most resent ones! Kuwait had a despotic ruler before we pushed Hussein out and what did our leaders do...they put him right back in control after Hussein was pushed out.

Ukraine had elected government leaders until the EU and the US sent people in to antagonize the people there. No look at what is happening, many innocent people are being killed!

According to the Constitution of this country, our military is not for the defense of or the aggression against other countries, our military is for the defense of the USA. The military personnel we have in other countries are not defending the USA. The USA is in North America!! Not in Europe, Southeast Asia, Africa, Central America, South America or the Middle East!!

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Post by Ssmith Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:12 pm

And that is the million dollar question.....when, or should, the US step into a conflict?  I agree w/Kevin about not trusting Putin.  Do we sit idly by and wait until situations get out of hand or until the strength of the 'bad guys' outweighs the strength of the US? 

One thing I do know, is that the US doesn't have the respect of the world like we used to and we need to get that back.  And I feel the only way to get that respect is to have a strong military.  My opinion, for what it's worth.....
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Post by BritishBulldog Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:41 pm

Having grown up in England we were always hearing about stuff going on in Eastern Europe. My belief is that we should let them figure it out themselves.  If they want to burn there cities to the ground then go for it....just don't come crying when your all hungry and you have blown yourselves back to the stone age.

It sounds selfish...but we need to start looking at these things as "what's in it for us?" We went in to the middle east because at the end of the day oil runs the world...literally and figuratively.  So we wanted to make sure it wasn't going to screw the rest of the world. But looking at this situation...what do we benefit from going in there and making peace. If Russia wants to step up...we have a whole hell of a lot more to loose then we do to gain.
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Post by uglyhorse Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:13 pm

SSMITH,

You don't trust Putin!! Is that saying you trust Obama and all his liars? You need to read the post I made just before yours!!

The USA needs to stay out of the rest of the worlds business and start taking care of our own country!!

Stop listening to the propaganda in the main stream news. They are just liars for Obama and his cohorts!!

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Post by Kevind53 Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:19 pm

I do not trust either of them, but I distrust Putin more.

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Post by dinarstar Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:28 pm

Wow!!

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Post by uglyhorse Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:43 pm

Kevind53,

I trust Putin a lot quicker than I would Obama!! I bet if you ask Putin to see his birth certificate, he would show you a real one and not a fake!! Everything about Obama is fake!!

You need to read the post I made before SSMITH made his last post!! Those are facts that I put in that Post!

You people need to wake up, get your heads out of your asses and take a closer look at the USSA! Yes I said, " the USSA!" The United Soviet States of America!! 

You don't make friends and gain or keep respect by killing people and starving people with sanctions in other countries because they don't do what you think they should!!

You are not nearly as FREE as you THINK you are!!

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Post by Kevind53 Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:55 pm

I have read your post, and many others like it. I don't buy any of it nor will I apologize for the USA. We have made mistakes, but warts and all, we are one heck of a lot better than the alternatives. As to Putin, he is old guard KGB through and through. Brush up on your history and learn what that means.

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Post by Guest Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:29 pm

Well , great discussions here folks.

As I said We can Agree to disagree.

I'm proud to be an American however I do believe we put our noses way too much into other people's affairs.

And financially I'm not in favor of spending so much money cleaning up other people's troubles. And guess what ? We rarely even get a thank you anyway !!

What I think we should now focus on is this question "what can we really do about it " ?

Russia is no Iran and economic sanctions won't cripple them. And Putin is as Merkel stated today "in his own world of reality".

ALSO VERY INTERESTING TODAY was interviews by people in Crimea who are proclaiming they are Russians and happy to see a Russian presence. Evidently also Crimea has voted that Annexation back to Russia is something they would favor.

SO , here's another question :

DO YOU SEE A DIVIDED UKRAINE HAPPENNING WITH CRIMEA BEING ANNEXED TO RUSSIA ???

I see it at 75% probable !

ANY THOUGHTS ???

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Post by Kevind53 Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:42 pm

I think it's a done deal. We could lay a hurt on Russia, but the political reality is that much of Europe is too dependent upon Russian trade to back our play even IF they agreed. The other factor is our president is much too busy trying to play Lord Melville and appease everyone to do anything that matters.

We will not do anything substantive, and like Poland in 1956 we will stand idly by wring our hands. Russia will take that as a cue that we have returned to our do nothing ways, China will also be watching, and may make a play for certain areas they have been coveting. I hope and pray I am wrong, but I fear I am not.

I keep coming back to the fact that because many might be ethnic Russians and OK with it does not make the invasion right.

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Post by IQD4US Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:16 am

I think everyone here is missing 1 very important point.

The United States of America does not sit in an office and go - "We are heading to such and such country because we don't like what they did."

It is a VOTE in the United Nations that decides if military action of ANY sort, and what that action will be, and WHEN that action will happen, under what terms.

Now the USA may have gone into the UN in the past as said "We believe xxx and xxxx and want to do xxxx", but without UN support = IE a vote put to the Nations, we are not going anywhere.

Without UN Sanctioning the event - we would be acting alone and just as guilty of whomever we were pointing fingers at.

It just HAPPENS that we have one of the more mobile and larger armies - and we LOVE to get involved......or I should say our Government does.  Obama may use this to raise the debt ceiling - but we aren't going without UN approval....
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Post by uglyhorse Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:01 am

I have a link here to something I think you all should read!! Please read the complete article!!

Especially you "Kevind53"!!

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/03/robert-bridge/seeking-global-domination/

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Post by Ssmith Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:59 am

@uglyhorse wrote:SSMITH,

You don't trust Putin!! Is that saying you trust Obama and all his liars? You need to read the post I made just before yours!!

The USA needs to stay out of the rest of the worlds business and start taking care of our own country!!

Stop listening to the propaganda in the main stream news. They are just liars for Obama and his cohorts!!
I do not, nor did I say that I trust Obama.  In my opinion he has no business being president.  The job he is doing is evidence of that.  Also I am well aware of the propaganda that is put out by the main stream news.

Absolutely we should take care of the US.  But we have allies in other countries.  Do we just forget about Israel?  What about the brewing trouble between Japan and China?  My understanding that gas to Europe going through the Ukraine.  What if Russia does try to take over Ukraine and disrupts the gas supply? If Europe asks for our help, do we just say sorry - you're on your own?  How about the next time there is a natural disaster.  We've always been there and offered more help than the other superpowers. 

Isolationism is very appealing right now.  I get that.  We're all suffering from war fatigue.  Many lives have been lost in Afghanistan and Iraq, and for what?  But....to just close our eyes to the rest of the world and let Russia and China run wild?  I think not.  Bottom line, it would leave the US in a very vulnerable position and would be a grave threat to OUR peace and security.  Peace through Strength!
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Post by uglyhorse Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:26 am

Peace comes from making friends, not through a strong military!! You can not force people to be your friends!! You don't make friends through aggression!!

Russia and China have not shown to be even half as aggressive as the US has over the last 25 years!!

You still don't see how Imperialistic the US has become have you!!

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Post by dinarstar Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:23 pm

I've lived in Ukraine, and in the US...and many other places around the world,I have Russian and American family.
Checks and balances, Yin and Yang, the world works because there are weaker and stronger, richer and poorer, because there's a left wing and a right wing,and somewhere there's a place of "middle ground" where opposing sides can come together to work out a plan that's not probably not perfect, but doable,those are the facts. Utopia does not exist on this planet, naivety does.

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Post by Ssmith Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:59 pm

@uglyhorse wrote:Peace comes from making friends, not through a strong military!! You can not force people to be your friends!! You don't make friends through aggression!!

Russia and China have not shown to be even half as aggressive as the US has over the last 25 years!!

You still don't see how Imperialistic the US has become have you!!
This is a difference we are never going to find common ground on.  Peace comes through respect, not friendship.  There are many countries that cannot be trusted and will never do anything that does not benefit them.  Could the US ever become "friends" with Iran?  Not on a bet.  The only was we can exist with them and other of the same ilk is if they know we will not put up with any nonsense from them.  Again, Peace through Strength!

Obama has already demonstrated how 'being friends' with other countries works out.  Arab Spring anyone?
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Post by uglyhorse Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:02 pm

I have lived in other countries also! So I'm not blind to the reality of things of the world.

I have no naive conceptions or misconceptions of governments as some people here and other places do. I feel sorry for these people who put their trust in these politicians and other government bureaucrats. Even when they know these people have lied to them and taken their money with out asking ( that is called stealing )!!

There are some very naive people that here on this site and in the USSA!!

War is good only for death and destruction! There are no good wars!!

A funny thing just struck me...that it isn't funny at all. You kill someone singly, you are called a murderer! You kill hundreds or thousands, you are called a hero!!

Again, I feel sorry for those of you that think our politicians and military do these things for our good and general well being. I have good reasons for feeling the way I do about these things...they have for many years and will for many more years haunt me! I am ashamed of what I have done...

I will not make anther post on this subject.

My prayers are with all of you...God bless!

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Post by Ssmith Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:27 pm

Uglyhorse,  I've enjoyed the exchange of ideas with you.  One of the good things about the US is that we are free to discuss things without fear of repercussions.  And yes, war is horrible and should not be entered into lightly. 

May God bless you too!
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Post by Kevind53 Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:34 pm

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Ask Neville Chamberlain how appeasement worked out. As nice as it might be to talk about peace, and getting along, the facts remain, that we live in a fallen world, and until the Price of Peace comes again, there will be those, and I believe we can count Putin and the Chinese leadership among them, who will respect only strength and take any sort of appeasement as weakness.

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Post by dinarstar Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:36 pm

As I've said. I lived in a number of different places... out of choice. I now consider myself fortunate to be living in the US. I am also here... by choice. No-one is forcing me to stay. If this was such a horrible, bad place, then why are tens of thousands around the world trying to come here, be it legally or illegally.... choosing the USA.... as their preferred country of permanent residence?
Do politicians lie?... yes
Do governments lie and have secret agendas?... yes, probably every one of them.
Do they make mistakes... yes
Heck, I make mistakes all day long, it starts with me, then the city, the county, the state, the government, the West, the East... where shall we stop?
As Kevin says, history repeats itself... hindsight is a perfect art, ssmith agrees, as I think most of us do, there are no real "winners" and there are no good wars.
If I lived in a cave I would pick up my club to protect my family, and if I realized I was up against a potentially more powerful adversary, I'd move, perhaps to a place where we could receive better protection, become part of a group more in line with my thinking.
Respect may not garner real friendship, Peace through Strength as ssmith says works for me, I can deal with that.

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Post by CroatianLight Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:35 am

Here is my 2 cents worth. I lived in Canada for 42 years, we grew up making fun of Americans, being stupid and not cultured enough to know that their border country was not filled with Eskimos. We always felt they knew nothing about the world outside their borders and from I am seeing, it hasn't changed much. 

I now live in Croatia, in Dalmatia, it's a tourist oriented country, when we see fat people walk by, you can hear the comments "oh, she must be American, look how fat she is", or they come into restaurants wearing Canadian flags and when asked about Canada, they say they are Americans, but were told to not expose their US nature, something like that. 

Mostly, Americans here are not really looked at with much respect, again, as being a stupid nation, but the government is very badly spoken of, hey, there are children being borned deformed from the NATO bombing/American Sponsored war on Serbia, every 5th person is dying of cancer from the DU left behind. 

I personally, have to say that I see Americans as not very informed about the reality of what goes on outside their borders, I know a few American-Croatian people that come here for the summer and I am just amazed at how little they know about what is going on. 

As for Ukraine, Putin is a very smart intelligent man, the media has portrayed him in a negative light, the guy is Mr. Everything, from Karate to fishing, to piloting an airplane, he's got it going and you have to admit, he's doing a good job, much better than other nations. We here in the EU are eating crumbs off the sidewalk, Croatia as the last EU member to join is now borrowing money to pay for the EU membership! Our finance Minister just announced austerity because he had to borrow to pay for our EU membership, can you believe that? 

I am not afraid of what is going to happen in Ukraine, even though we are just 2 country borders away, the US has no chance, the EU has no chance nor does NATO with Putin, he will annihilate anyone that tries to challenge him. What we are hearing in the MSM is just bullshit, to make Americans think their President has some clout, THE US of A is finished, toast, it's being laughed at as the iron horse full of rust and about to collapse on itself, that is what our media here in Europe is saying and writing about, some are even saying that is THE collapse of the US Empire, their last attempt to cause a war that will not happen because people/humanity is tired of the US Gov., and it's hegemony and arrogant stance towards other countries, we consider The US of A government to be the biggest threat to humanity.

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Post by CroatianLight Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:40 am

I would like to recommend a website I have been reading since the inception of the Internet in the 80's, this site is filled with really good information and a good mix of authors who are truthseekers and truth presenters.
I"m sure you have heard or read of Jeff Rense
http://www.rense.com

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WHAT'S YOUR OPINION ON UKRAINE ?? Empty Re: WHAT'S YOUR OPINION ON UKRAINE ??

Post by Kevind53 Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:11 am

Yea,I have heard of him and he is not someone I consider a reliable source of truth. No, our lame stream media has not portrayed Mr. Putin in a negative sense, but pretty much as you have described him. My son is a world class athlete (now retired to coaching), at the time, he was told not to wear any part of his uniform outside of competition and awards ceremonies and to conceal the fact if possible, that he was an American. This came directly from the State Department representative who briefed the team before traveling to international competition in Europe and was the result of attacks on Americans at the time. He's been retired from competition for a number of years, so I do not know what the current situation is, but there is a basis at least.

They can laugh all they want, it's not the first time others underestimated Americans and it will not be the last. Are we brash? Yea. Rebellious and argumentative? You bet, all that an more. It's a part of our national DNA, our founders were misfits and malcontents, stubborn and rebellious to the core. The only nations with a somewhat similar base that I can think of would be Australia and New Zealand. I'm not going to debate the merits or faults of the US here, but while I have not traveled as much as some others, I have many friends who have and there is no place I would rather be.

Serbia was a mess, one that as I recall Russia was also heavilly involved with. It was an ethnic battle much like what we are seeing in so many places today. It's ugly anyway it happens. 

Face it, very few people anywhere are well informed about what goes on outside their borders. That's human nature, we don't pay a lot of attention to that which does not directly effect you, even in today's 24/7 news cycle. That's just the way it is, and will continue to be.

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WHAT'S YOUR OPINION ON UKRAINE ?? Empty Re: WHAT'S YOUR OPINION ON UKRAINE ??

Post by CroatianLight Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:25 am

KEvin53 I agree with you, I should have clarified some things I didn't want ppl to think I had a perspective on Americans today. You are what you are based on your culture, belief systems and personal choices you make like all of us on this planet. 
I find Americans to be very kind and helpful, proud of who they are and well meaning. Those that choose to rise above themselves do so on their own because they won't find it on the educational system, so, don't feel I have anything negative to say. Like all people's there are good and there are bad, but what we should all be focusing on is how to make this world better for ALL of us, not just each country. We should not be separated by borders, colors, religions and politics, that was the Cabal Master Plan to keep us divided so they could conquer us, now that we are finally awakening to all this, we need to stand up together and work together as ONE to create the world that we want.

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WHAT'S YOUR OPINION ON UKRAINE ?? Empty Re: WHAT'S YOUR OPINION ON UKRAINE ??

Post by Kevind53 Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:53 am

Well that is one place where we differ, I do not believe there is a Cabal, let alone a cabal master plan. In fact, I see the whole cabal scenario as being subtly anti-Semitic. Maybe as the grandson of a Jew who came here because of persecution I am a little sensitive there, but when the majority of the "leaders" of such a supposed movement happen to have Jewish roots, I think it's a pretty reasonable conclusion.

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Post by Ssmith Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:56 am

Croatian Light....  You made two points I want to touch on.  The first is the knowledge we (Americans), have regarding the world and what goes on in it.  Unfortunately I have to agree.  There are so many of us that don't have any knowledge of what goes on in this country.  Probably more people could tell you who won the Oscars than can name the VP, let alone Sec of State, etc.  Look at how many voted for "free health care"!  This has to change, and change quick!

Second, we are all God's children.  It bugs me when people complain that we send $$$'s to other countries for relief aid when we have people suffering here.  But, for the most part, the people who are having a difficult time here are in their respective situations due to their own life choices.  We spend a lot on social programs, but many have gotten lazy and just want a hand out.

I wish all of us would realize that we are all on this planet together and would work together.....but as long as there is evil, that day won't be able to happen.
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Post by Kevind53 Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:09 am

As I sad the other day, in our fallen state, until Jesus, the Prince of Peace comes again there will be no true peace on this earth.

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Post by wpsmit Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:31 am

Absolutely, Kevin....These events are all planned, not by any earthly Cabal, but by God the Father almighty. The events of thousands of years have all been planned and will come to fruition so that the prophesy as told in the book of Revelation (wow, almost spelled it Revaluation) shall come to pass. Will it happen in my lifetime? Who knows? Certainly not me. But in the favorite words of the dinar pundits, it will be soon, very soon.

As for the original question, IMHO, the 3 letter word (OIL) is at the bottom of this whole situation.....as usual!

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